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Rights of Fathers [W:361]

Steve Ja

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Everyone likes to point to the rights of the woman, what about the man involved? In a vast majority of pregnancies there is consent in the sex involved. He should have a say in the child's development and termination as well IMO. I am absolutely 100% against abortion, except in extreme case where the mothers life is in danger. It is well documented in a thread on my views on abortion. However it is legal and while it is legal the mother should not be able to by herself decide the child's fate, except in cases of rape and incest. The father deserves a voice. It is his child too, and his life will be altered by the experience one way or another.
This is not a pro-abortion thread, but a pro fathers rights thread since abortion is legal

what are your thoughts
 
Everyone likes to point to the rights of the woman, what about the man involved? In a vast majority of pregnancies there is consent in the sex involved. He should have a say in the child's development and termination as well IMO. I am absolutely 100% against abortion, except in extreme case where the mothers life is in danger. It is well documented in a thread on my views on abortion. However it is legal and while it is legal the mother should not be able to by herself decide the child's fate, except in cases of rape and incest. The father deserves a voice. It is his child too, and his life will be altered by the experience one way or another.
This is not a pro-abortion thread, but a pro fathers rights thread since abortion is legal

what are your thoughts

Very simply, if a man doesn't want his woman having an abortion, he should use contraception of some sort.
 
This is the defining difference between a pregnancy and the act of sexual intercourse.

Sex in itself is equally shared by the two individuals. So it would make sense that each party would have equal consent.

A Pregnancy however is overwhelmingly more of a burden upon the female party. Since there is little if any median between having and not having an abortion it has to come down to whoever has more weight in the decision. This would be the carrier of the pregnancy.
 
The father is not the one who has to carry through the pregnancy. It is also mostly men and not women who run away and leave a spouce alone to raise a child. To me every debate arround abortion is pointless aslong as the potential poverty that a single mum and single dad can fall into is not debated.

And rape is a non debateable.
 
Very simply, if a man doesn't want his woman having an abortion, he should use contraception of some sort.
Fair enough, though I still believe he should have a say in his child's fate. There is way more at stake then the woman's body and she should not use her body as an excuse make the decision solo to commit legal murder, which is exactly what abortion is. Termination of an innocent human life, who is actually only guilty of being conceived.. a human baby life..murder

I do respect your feelings though and am not bashing you for it
 
Or simply avoid the kinds of women who would have an abortion anyway.
Really? Seems that the only way to assure that a man is in a position to be sure of that is if sex for the sake of pregnancy is agreeable to both pre-sexual activity. Otherwise, no, use contraception if you don't have permission from the woman to put an embryo in her uterus. If you think you have her permission, and then screw up in anyway, she may change her mind about your embryo, and that's her right. The only way you can be sure, is to use protection.
 
Fair enough, though I still believe he should have a say in his child's fate. There is way more at stake then the woman's body and she should not use her body as an excuse make the decision solo to commit legal murder, which is exactly what abortion is. Termination of an innocent human life, who is actually only guilty of being conceived.. a human baby life..murder

I do respect your feelings though and am not bashing you for it
It's not murder, period.
 
The father is not the one who has to carry through the pregnancy. It is also mostly men and not women who run away and leave a spouce alone to raise a child. To me every debate arround abortion is pointless aslong as the potential poverty that a single mum and single dad can fall into is not debated.

And rape is a non debateable.
I agree on the rape... However using deadbeats as an example for all men isn't a sticking point to me at all. What abotu the majority of men who are real emn and take responsibility? They should 100% have a say. again my thoughts just responding to you as you did me

So you are saying abortion is OK if it will put the family in a financial bind? What if the baby is born and then the mom and dad lose their jobs and go into poverty? Is it OK to kill the child to keep that financial burden down? Maybe a stretch but what are you saying?
 
I agree on the rape... However using deadbeats as an example for all men isn't a sticking point to me at all. What abotu the majority of men who are real emn and take responsibility? They should 100% have a say. again my thoughts just responding to you as you did me

As mentioned before, the man is not the one who is carrying out the preagnancy. And if a man is together with a woman who doesn`t want children while he does, then he is simply in the wrong releationship. And I believe I can take deadbeats as an example considering that the number of singlemums is higher than the number of singlefathers.

So you are saying abortion is OK if it will put the family in a financial bind? What if the baby is born and then the mom and dad lose their jobs and go into poverty? Is it OK to kill the child to keep that financial burden down? Maybe a stretch but what are you saying?

I am saying that there is less incentive for an abortion or giving the child away when being a parent is less of a financial burden.

The abortion rates in my country went down after the conservative government increased childsupport to 184 € for 1 child, 368 € for 2 children, 558 € for 3 and 215 € for every extra child after 3.

As a result the abortion rates sunk dramaticaly, the majority off all abortions that happen here are when a disabled child is expected.

Fear of falling into poverty or losing your job, is the main reason why people chose not to be parents. So whatever potential course of events you can come up with, you will not bypass this fact when trying to find a way to lower the abortion rate.
 
As mentioned before, the man is not the one who is carrying out the preagnancy. And if a man is together with a woman who doesn`t want children while he does, then he is simply in the wrong releationship. And I believe I can take deadbeats as an example considering that the number of singlemums is higher than the number of singlefathers.




I am saying that there is less incentive for an abortion or giving the child away when being a parent is less of a financial burden.

The abortion rates in my country went down after the conservative government increased childsupport to 184 € for 1 child, 368 € for 2 children, 558 € for 3 and 215 € for every extra child after 3.

As a result the abortion rates sunk dramaticaly, the majority off all abortions that happen here are when a disabled child is expected.

Fear of falling into poverty or losing your job, is the main reason why people chose not to be parents. So whatever potential course of events you can come up with, you will not bypass this fact when trying to find a way to lower the abortion rate.

Very reasonable answers. I like how you explained that rationally and intelligently. I still believe the father, if he is involved should have a say, as it is his child too and his life too. I also like the set child support amount in your country, here it is based off income differences and can vary dramatically.
 
Very reasonable answers. I like how you explained that rationally and intelligently. I still believe the father, if he is involved should have a say, as it is his child too and his life too.

Then think about your proposal in legal terms: meaning what is possible.

If you would even want to have a little bit of a legal say in this you will have to prove that you are in fact the father, that can be determined during a pregnancy, but only with the mothers aproval, which leads to a potential legal gridlock.

I also like the set child support amount in your country, here it is based off income differences and can vary dramatically.

It does not vary here at all. One simply loses ones right to it when one has an income over 300 000 Euros a year.

What I mentioned is only the tip of the iceberg here. Giving birth is itself is for free in hospitals, parents get enormous taxbenefits the more children they have, education is free, parents have a right to "parent pension" once they retire, child support is payed monthly until a child reaches the age of 25 and parents can even demand childsupport when living in a foreign country.
 
Removal of a benign growth.
Kinda like a wart? So even at 12, 13 15 16 weeks just a wart? Of course not. at every stage that is a human being developed and should be treated as such, not a burdensome growth Again my thoughts
 
Then think about your proposal in legal terms: meaning what is possible.

If you would even want to have a little bit of a legal say in this you will have to prove that you are in fact the father, that can be determined during a pregnancy, but only with the mothers aproval, which leads to a potential legal gridlock.



It does not vary here at all. One simply loses ones right to it when one has an income over 300 000 Euros a year.

What I mentioned is only the tip of the iceberg here. Giving birth is itself is for free in hospitals, parents get enormous taxbenefits the more children they have, education is free, parents have a right to "parent pension" once they retire, child support is payed monthly until a child reaches the age of 25 and parents can even demand childsupport when living in a foreign country.
Another good point in cases where whose the father comes into play. Can create a very sticky and costly legal battle, but can you really put a price on an innocent life? I mean we are not simply talking about buying a toy, or car, this is a human life. It will not be anything else to me, so it is a human being even at 2 cells. My thoughts and I've argued this point before. It was twisted into something else, but that doesn't change how I feel.
 
Another good point in cases where whose the father comes into play. Can create a very sticky and costly legal battle, but can you really put a price on an innocent life? I mean we are not simply talking about buying a toy, or car, this is a human life. It will not be anything else to me, so it is a human being even at 2 cells. My thoughts and I've argued this point before. It was twisted into something else, but that doesn't change how I feel.

And can you put a prize on the mothers life? And is life worth living when it is in poverty?

I dont understand how you accept abortion in cases of rape, but then insist that it is a human life at an early stage of development.

Feelings should be kept out of politics, that can drive people into doing very irrational things.
 
And can you put a prize on the mothers life? And is life worth living when it is in poverty?

I dont understand how you accept abortion in cases of rape, but then insist that it is a human life at an early stage of development.

Feelings should be kept out of politics, that can drive people into doing very irrational things.

Life is always worth living, for tomorrow brings new hope that it can be better than today.
I don't support abortion in cases of rape and it is a human life at every stage. Only time I feel it should be considered and it isn't an endorsement of abortion or acceptance of it is
when there will be two deaths instead of one.
We are human and our feelings directly reflect our politics.
 
Life is always worth living, for tomorrow brings new hope that it can be better than today.

Hope is worthless if one does not have the means and resources to create a better life.
I don't support abortion in cases of rape and it is a human life at every stage. Only time I feel it should be considered and it isn't an endorsement of abortion or acceptance of it is
when there will be two deaths instead of one.

So if the mother dies you believe that the childs birth should still be a priority?

We are human and our feelings directly reflect our politics.

Actualy not always. It is important to keep rational when making a decision that will affect the lives of millions.

Which is why I would never vote for anyone who bases his or her political decisions on feelings.
 
Hope is worthless if one does not have the means and resources to create a better life.


So if the mother dies you believe that the childs birth should still be a priority?



Actualy not always. It is important to keep rational when making a decision that will affect the lives of millions.

Which is why I would never vote for anyone who bases his or her political decisions on feelings.
We all have the means and resources available to better ourselves.
Not a priority per say but also not aborted just for the sake of saving the mother, how is her life more important then the baby. I am not saying the baby is more important either, but how can we determine who lives and dies? We can't so let nature do it. Now if the baby will die too, then yes an abortion to save a life makes sense, rather then an abortion to end one. Just my thinking
I would make my decisions based on the voters who put me into office and what they want. And Since they vote me in based on how I believe and feel on certain subjects I would fight for what I believe in and feel on those subjects, because I would have zero reason to believe that the voters voted me in simply because I'm a nice guy, or good looking.
 
We all have the means and resources available to better ourselves.
Not a priority per say but also not aborted just for the sake of saving the mother, how is her life more important then the baby. I am not saying the baby is more important either, but how can we determine who lives and dies? We can't so let nature do it. Now if the baby will die too, then yes an abortion to save a life makes sense, rather then an abortion to end one. Just my thinking
I would make my decisions based on the voters who put me into office and what they want. And Since they vote me in based on how I believe and feel on certain subjects I would fight for what I believe in and feel on those subjects, because I would have zero reason to believe that the voters voted me in simply because I'm a nice guy, or good looking.

Have to go offline, will reply when coming back online.
 
Everyone likes to point to the rights of the woman, what about the man involved? In a vast majority of pregnancies there is consent in the sex involved. He should have a say in the child's development and termination as well IMO. I am absolutely 100% against abortion, except in extreme case where the mothers life is in danger. It is well documented in a thread on my views on abortion. However it is legal and while it is legal the mother should not be able to by herself decide the child's fate, except in cases of rape and incest. The father deserves a voice. It is his child too, and his life will be altered by the experience one way or another.
This is not a pro-abortion thread, but a pro fathers rights thread since abortion is legal

what are your thoughts

So, he should be able to force the woman to abort if that's what he wants?

The man can have a say when he is pregnant - but only about HIS pregnancy.
 
So, he should be able to force the woman to abort if that's what he wants?

The man can have a say when he is pregnant - but only about HIS pregnancy.

No the man can't force anything, but should have a say in the matter. Mutual agreement between two people, interesting I know
 
No the man can't force anything, but should have a say in the matter. Mutual agreement between two people, interesting I know

How can he have a say without forcing??

And what if they both want abortion?
 
As mentioned before, the man is not the one who is carrying out the preagnancy. And if a man is together with a woman who doesn`t want children while he does, then he is simply in the wrong releationship. And I believe I can take deadbeats as an example considering that the number of singlemums is higher than the number of singlefathers.



I am saying that there is less incentive for an abortion or giving the child away when being a parent is less of a financial burden.

The abortion rates in my country went down after the conservative government increased childsupport to 184 € for 1 child, 368 € for 2 children, 558 € for 3 and 215 € for every extra child after 3.

As a result the abortion rates sunk dramaticaly, the majority off all abortions that happen here are when a disabled child is expected.

Fear of falling into poverty or losing your job, is the main reason why people chose not to be parents. So whatever potential course of events you can come up with, you will not bypass this fact when trying to find a way to lower the abortion rate.

You raise a different social question. The US government pays single women to have children and for many that is becoming a lifestyle. Is that a valid way to "prevent" abortions - paying poor women to have children for the government benefits of doing so?

Yesterday and the day before, we drove thru Harlem, NY. MILLIONS of people, poor people mostly African-American, living in 8 to 12 story tenement buildings, each with their little cubic apartment - with such tenements jammed together going in every direction for miles. An area so dangerous it was the only area of greater NYC there were NOT people milling around on the street nor the endless small businesses at street level.

Paying women to have children for the purpose of the money, housing assistance, food stamps etc that come with each child is a social disaster, for which in mostly a literally way the government is financing massive warehousing of humans districts. So in a sense it is true that the more the government will pay single women to have otherwise unwanted children, the more unwanted children that won't be aborted.

What is the limit? There would be 50,000,000 more unwanted children, mostly born into poverty and government dependency, if abortions were illegal AND the government paying all costs of those children - for many literally for the rest of their life as they go on government dependency as adults. A few months ago, I posted the calculation of how much those 50,000,000 more could cost the government - and it is TRILLIONS of dollars a year - and would increase exponentially with each generation.

So how many unwanted children except for the government aid is the goal? 100,000,000? 300,000,000? 1 Trillion more?

Every country that has exploding populations of people born into poverty are hellish countries of extreme poverty, little to no civil rights, dictatorial governments and for which few people have even a hope for a decent future.

No one really discusses what reality would be without abortions in real terms. They just say "adoptions" as if that would solve anything.
 
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