Some people have been pressured into making confessions based on the lies of police officers.
They mentally break down because of the fear of worse consequences that police officers propose, if the perp doesn't immediately confess.
It's called duress and in any other environment of law, it's unlawful.
Can you show me an example of someone lying about doing something they didn't do based on a lie? Or are you just spouting TV BS?
I'd be more interested in cases that didn't involve stats from 1982, back when police didn't have ease of access to DNA evidence in order to disprove a confession obtained.
But no statistics will fully explain this situation. As claiming your confession was false (when it really wasn't) happens more often than you think as a defense to trying to get out of trouble.
It doesn't really make any difference, the point is that it does happen.
I don't get how someone lying to me is going to falsely make me confess to doing something........
I don't get this part.... Apparently you are thinking that ending the interview is a "bad" thing. If one does not want to incriminate themselves, they state that they wish to remain silent until a lawyer is present and will not answer any questions. Then they re-iterate that if the Detective do not want to afford them the opportunity to have their lawyer present, then they won't be answering any questions. And then stick to their guns. Don't see what the problem is here unless you are a paranoid freak who thinks all cops are going to beat info out of people like some god damned Dirty Harry movie or some other paranoid bull****. If thats the type of mentality Im debating here. I"ll leave. I don't debate with irrational people.
Plea bargains are just this type of thing.
It's an admission of lesser guilt, in order to defer harsher sentencing, even if you didn't do something.
I'd be more interested in cases that didn't involve stats from 1982, back when police didn't have ease of access to DNA evidence in order to disprove a confession obtained.
I'm sorry that my right to a lawyer interferes with your donut break.Ever been in an interview?
Every time someone asks for a lawyer. It pretty much means the interview doesn't happen, unless its for a capital crime. For something as small as "Hit and Run" or "DWI" or "Assault on a Female" etc. Im not going to wait around trying to get a lawyer present to ask questions, Im better off not asking them, I don't feel like wasting my time for such small change ****.
If the interview doesn't happen, that means you don't incriminate yourself.
My removing this lawyer requirement..... All it means is that you have to stick to your guns and not open your fat lip. You still have the right to remain silent. Inform the Detectives that you do not wish to speak without a lawyer present, and that you will retain your right to silence until such time as a lawyer can be afforded. Then stick to your guns and keep your mouth shut.
This has basically been the point I have been trying to get across the whole time, but Caine is being obtuse. I am not saying the entire law enforcement sector is corrupt or that interrogations are inherently bad, but the protections in place are to defend the innocent from instances of abuse of power and corruption.
I don't see why that is so hard to understand.
Caine, maybe you just aren't in favour of individual rights as much as I thought you were?
Easy. The cops tell a lie that make it sound like the person you love the most in the whole wide world is about to go down for something they may or may not have done.
So you confess to a crime you didn't commit to keep the nearest and dearest to you off the hook.
You don't have to beat someone to intimidate them into talking.
Aside from that, no system in which a person has to be with it enough to remember what their rights are while under duress is a just system.
You shouldn't have to "opt-in" to invoking your rights, you should have to "opt-out" of being protected by them.
Check out "Three Felonies a Day." The Feds have a closure rate of 90%, and of that 90%, 96% is because of plea deals.
They get plea deals because so many Federal laws are vague and open to interpretation, and penalties are so high, that you're better off taking a deal for a few years in a Federal pen than you are in fighting it out and risking spending the rest of your life in prison.
Do you know much about plea deals?
They are used to keep **** out of court when there is enough evidence to convict someone of some part of the crime. It saves time on the court docket.
Unless you specifically state you wish to invoke your rights, how can we be sure?
And your a ****ing idiot for doing so..
That is all.
Its not hard to understand.
I see a 'loss' of a right to counsel.
I don't see how this changes the fact that you still do not have to self incriminate.
I see false confessions as a sign of mental health issues in the person admitting to doing something that they didn't have anything to do with more so than OMFG ABUSE OF POWER!
The false confessions gained in this day and age are usually obtained without the knowledge by police that they are in fact false.
I don't consider someone doing something that they don't have any idea they are doing as OMFG ABUSE OF POWER!!ZOMG!
Its the job of investigators to
"Convict the Guilty and Exonerate the Innocent!"
Not.
"Convict someone! Who cares who!"
Law Enforcement has changed ALOT since the 1970s and 80s.
But for some reason all we seem to hear about is **** that happened in the 70s and 80s like its happening today.
Its not hard to understand.
I see a 'loss' of a right to counsel.
I don't see how this changes the fact that you still do not have to self incriminate.
I see false confessions as a sign of mental health issues in the person admitting to doing something that they didn't have anything to do with more so than OMFG ABUSE OF POWER!
The false confessions gained in this day and age are usually obtained without the knowledge by police that they are in fact false.
I don't consider someone doing something that they don't have any idea they are doing as OMFG ABUSE OF POWER!!ZOMG!
Its the job of investigators to
"Convict the Guilty and Exonerate the Innocent!"
Not.
"Convict someone! Who cares who!"
Law Enforcement has changed ALOT since the 1970s and 80s.
But for some reason all we seem to hear about is **** that happened in the 70s and 80s like its happening today.
A while back I was accused of not criticizing my own country. Well, here you go.
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2010/10/08/supreme-court-charter-right-lawyer-interview.htm
The only thing Canadian suspects have a right to now is to remain silent. One step further to fascism.
What is happening to rights in the western world???
Really? Is that what you got out of that?I'm sorry that my right to a lawyer interferes with your donut break.
Or the cops can tell you that they already have evidence which pins you to the crime, and if you confess now you can get a lesser sentence. So you freak out, not wanting to go to jail for 10 years, and you sign a confession to ensure you only get 2 years. You are still innocent, but with the threat of having your life taken away, you will do anything in desperation.
Or they claim that they have a second suspect in the next room who knows you and knows you were at the crime, and they tell you that the first one to confess gets the lesser jail time.
The reason why these claims can coerce false confessions is that, even though you are innocent, you know it's entirely possible that the court system can **** you over if you can't prove reasonable doubt. It happens all the time, especially if you can't afford a good lawyer.
The point is that innocence should have the most protection. If the cops have such conclusive proof that you are guilty, then they shouldn't feel threatened by your rights to a lawyer. The lawyer won't matter, you're still going to go down.
The onus should never be on the suspect to ensure that their innocence gets preserved; the onus is on the POLICE to provide evidence of probable cause so that charges can be pressed. If the police can't do that, they have no business pressing an innocent person for non-existent confessions or information, and that is the precise reason why rights to a lawyer are needed.
I would've thought that it was kind of obvious -- until someone indicates that they're willing to relinquish their rights, you assume they're invoking them. Sort of like those nifty Miranda waivers. :lol:
Right, of course. That seems to be your answer to anybody whose rights have been trampled -- either they were guilty, or stupid.
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