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Review and Critique of Richard Dawkins' "The Selfish Gene"

seymourflops

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First of all, I read it because one of our sibling posters implied that it would show me how wrong I was about the lack of evidence for Darwinian evolution. "The Selfish Gene" is addressed to believers, it makes very few arguments that Darwin is possible, that must be accepted on faith to then accept the premises of the book. The person who recommended this book either has not read it or deliberately sent me on a wild goose chase. If the latter, congrats to them!

The first sentence of his book is by far the truest. In the preface to the 1976 edition, he says, "This book should be read almost as though it were science fiction." Take out the "almost" and that advice is spot on.

He describes three imaginary readers he wrote for, the layman, the expert and the student, an in-between. His book for skeptics is "The Blind Watchmaker," which I read long ago. If I recall correctly, I found that it had internal logic, but was not especially convincing that he explained how the universe and life on Earth exist without having been designed on some level.

It is in the second preface, that he summarizes the thesis of the book:

The selfish gene theory is Darwin's theory, expressed in a way that Darwin did not choose but whose aptness, I should like to think, he would instantly have recognized and delighted in. It is in fact a logical outgrowth of orthodox neo-Darwinism, but expressed as a novel image. Rather than focus on the individual organism, it takes a gene's-eye view of nature.

Rather than the fundamental principle of Darwinism, the idea that it is the genes that are surviving using the individual organism, seems to me to be the fundamental "duh," of Darwinism. My field is psychology, Dawkins' grand idea is like me saying, "rather than studying the way people behave, we should study the way their minds behave through the body."

Anyway, given all that, it isn't a bad book. If his use of the word "selfish" were intended to be an analogy, it would hold up well. But to him, it is not an analogy, it is very real:

If we were told that a man had lived a long and prosperous life in the world of Chicago gangsters, we would be entitled to make some guesses as to the sort of man he was. We might expect that he would have qualities such as toughness, a quick trigger finger, and the ability to attract loyal friends. These would not be infallible deductions, but you can make some inferences about a man's character if you know something about the conditions in which he has survived and prospered. The argument of this book is that we, and all other animals, are machines created by our genes. Like successful Chicago gangsters, our genes have survived, in some cases for millions of years, in a highly competitive world. This entities us to expect certain qualities in our genes. I shall argue that a predominant quality to be expected in a successful gene is ruthless selfishness. This gene selfishness will usually give rise to selfishness in individual behaviour.

Genes cannot be selfish and they certainly cannot be "ruthless." Nor can they be altruistic and merciful. Those are emotions. Actually, by one definition of "ruthless," which would be lacking pity or compassion for others, you could argue that they are ruthless because they lack the emotions of pity or compassion. By that definition, my left shoe is also ruthless.

No, Dawkins seems convinced that genes selfishly and ruthlessly want to survive and replicate. Guess what he calls their effort to do so?

Let us understand what our own selfish genes are up to, because we may then at least have the chance to upset their designs, something that no other species has ever aspired to

:unsure:

Continued next post.
 
This book has been panned and loved by social-minded critics. Some of them found that it justified the kind of ruthless capitalism that "economic Darwinism" promotes. But Dawkins denies this and says that his point was that understanding our own selfishness can allow us to over-come it.

He also talks about cases in which species seem to have a built-in (thus genetic) altruism in certain circumstances. The protective mother instinct was not his first example, which is surprising, given its near universality. Instead he talks about baboons risking their lives fighting for the tribe or dolphins rescuing a human swimmer, perhaps based on its genetic programing to save a trashing half floating form. No doubt, the marginalizing of the "mamma bear" instinct was due to the male centric times he wrote the book in.

As I mentioned in another post, before I had even read the book,

By referring to a "selfish gene" Dawkins implies a desire on the part of something incapable of desire or any other emotion. I haven't seen a Darwinist writer yet who doesnt do the same. They can't help but describe evolution as if some intelligent force guides it and then they say that of course that's just an anology, because there is no such intelligent force.

Because they "cant" see it. But they do see it or why talk that way about the theory?

Here it is, as expected:

I shall make use of the metaphor of the architect's plans, freely mixing the language of the metaphor with the language of the real thing. 'Volume' will be used interchangeably with chromosome. 'Page' will provisionally be used interchangeably with gene, although the division between genes is less clear-cut than the division between the pages of a book. This metaphor will take us quite a long way.

When it finally breaks down I shall introduce other metaphors. Incidentally, there is of course no 'architect'. The DNA instructions have been assembled by natural selection.


If you are expecting the next sentence or paragraphs to be the proof that, in spite of Dawkins himself seeing apparent architecture, there is no architect, you'd be disappointed. The words "of course," are to be taken on faith. There is no architect because Dawkins doesn't see one. He only sees the architecture.

I presume he would apply the same logic to the Stonehenge, the pyramids of the Americas and prehistoric dwellings found were no people were previously known to have lived.

Why do proponents of Darwinism insist on using metaphors that imply design and intent? Because describing the steps in the processes of evolution as purely accidental and random starts to sound ludicrous pretty quickly. Some impetus appears to be driving evolution, not just random mutations, a tiny fraction of which produce individuals that have an advantage over other individuals.

So they describe the process using metaphors of deliberateness and then at the end say, "oh but of course it was all random." Because "of course."

My question for Dawkins and his fans on here would be this:

If genes selfishly replicate themselves, why did sexual selection come about when sexual selection only replicates half of the genes in an individual?

At least one of you has insisted that genes are actually and in reality selfish and that it was a Nobel prize winning discovery, so perhaps that poster should be allowed to answer first.

But I understand if your genes compel you to "selfishly" answer before they have a chance.
 
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If we were told that a man had lived a long and prosperous life in the world of Chicago gangsters, we would be entitled to make some guesses as to the sort of man he was. We might expect that he would have qualities such as toughness, a quick trigger finger, and the ability to attract loyal friends. These would not be infallible deductions, but you can make some inferences about a man's character if you know something about the conditions in which he has survived and prospered. The argument of this book is that we, and all other animals, are machines created by our genes. Like successful Chicago gangsters, our genes have survived, in some cases for millions of years, in a highly competitive world. This entities us to expect certain qualities in our genes. I shall argue that a predominant quality to be expected in a successful gene is ruthless selfishness. This gene selfishness will usually give rise to selfishness in individual behaviour.

Genes cannot be selfish and they certainly cannot be "ruthless." Nor can they be altruistic and merciful. Those are emotions. Actually, by one definition of "ruthless," which would be lacking pity or compassion for others, you could argue that they are ruthless because they lack the emotions of pity or compassion. By that definition, my left shoe is also ruthless.

No, Dawkins seems convinced that genes selfishly and ruthlessly want to survive and replicate. Guess what he calls their effort to do so?

:unsure:

Continued next post.

And with that, it's clear your entire "contribution" is based on what is almost certainly a deliberate misunderstanding of the sense in which the word "selfish" or any of the other words bothered you were being used.





My question for Dawkins and his fans on here would be this:

If genes selfishly replicate themselves, why did sexual selection come about when sexual selection only replicates half of the genes in an individual?

We had another guy (Sherlock Holmes) who liked to park himself in this subsection and manufacture the dumbest possible pro-creationism/anti-evolution threads, often using exactly that kind of moronic "question." It's a false choice between two things you don't understand.

Nothing about the existence of reproduction makes Dawkins wrong, and you wouldn't know it if you did because you completely "misunderstood" how he was using the words you object to.




(Others who might be interested in why there is sexuality, a pretty good one is bound up with the argument for the origins of life expressed in Nick Lane's "The Vital Question")
 
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And with that, it's clear your entire "contribution" is based on what is almost certainly a deliberate misunderstanding of the sense in which the word "selfish" or any of the other words bothered you were being used.
In what "sense" was it being used?

Where in the book does Dawkins explain that?
 
Humans are selfish by nature. It's a fundamental survival instinct of the "lower brain".

But humans are able to rise above it.
 
Humans are selfish by nature. It's a fundamental survival instinct of the "lower brain".

But humans are able to rise above it.
Well put, beancounter.

Too bad you were not Dawkins' editor. That would have been pretty much the whole book in those sentences.

The rest was filler.
 
I'm sure Dawkins was a fine scientist at one time. Waded out into religion and philosophy, seemingly with little understanding of either and ultimately relegated himself to an angry old man.
 
In what "sense" was it being used?

Where in the book does Dawkins explain that?
Wow. That you cannot understand the anthropomorphic use of 'selfish' for lay people and non-scientists is very sad. Again, your entire stated professional background is completely unbelievable. And yes, he explained the comparison all thru the book.

You were supposed to learn a foundation for evolution...it if you deliberately chose not to learn anything...I'm sure you know from your 'teacher' days that you cant force kids to learn. But for you to believe you know more than the author on the critical concepts and processes? Nearly all still stand today and they laid the groundwork for research to come.

You, like many religious people, "need" for your belief in creationism or ID (same thing using pseudoscience) to be true, so you use science 'backwards'...you have the result you must believe, and then manipulate science to 'prove it.' IMO, people this incapable of grasping reality should never be in charge of 'molding young minds' in the classroom.
 
@seymourflops Anyway, to further progress in your education, dont forget to read the other 2. They build nicely on...and are more current...on that foundation of evolution at the genetic level. If not...wallow in ignorance, I dont care.

The Red Queen: Sex and the Evolution of Human Nature, Matt Ridley

The Tangled Tree: A Radical New History of Life, David Quammen

The first is one of my favorite books and really awesome. Quammen's book, which you already dissed, is a history of scientists developing the theories of life and its development and evolution. It goes back to the 1800's and even further, before Darwin. He's not an evolutionary biologist, he's a science writer who's brought together all the theories and their development, abandonment, growth, etc. for examination, a history. Your prior judgment was incredibly myopic and childish.
 
@seymourflops Anyway, to further progress in your education, dont forget to read the other 2. They build nicely on...and are more current...on that foundation of evolution at the genetic level. If not...wallow in ignorance, I dont care.

The Red Queen: Sex and the Evolution of Human Nature, Matt Ridley

The Tangled Tree: A Radical New History of Life, David Quammen

The first is one of my favorite books and really awesome. Quammen's book, which you already dissed, is a history of scientists developing the theories of life and its development and evolution. It goes back to the 1800's and even further, before Darwin. He's not an evolutionary biologist, he's a science writer who's brought together all the theories and their development, abandonment, growth, etc. for examination, a history. Your prior judgment was incredibly myopic and childish.
I hope this isn't method acting Because it isn't very convincing.

BTW, if Dawkins himself said that it is possible that life on Earth was started by a sentient being, would that change your mind about ID or change your mind about Dawkins?
 
BTW, if Dawkins himself said that it is possible that life on Earth was started by a sentient being, would that change your mind about ID or change your mind about Dawkins?

I always find questions like this funny. It's almost as if you believe that atheism is a cult with a leader. Maybe that's just what you relate to.

It wouldn't matter what Dawkins said. It doesn't matter what any particular atheist says or does. Atheism isn't born out of the words of a "leader". People that I've met that are atheists, aren't followers.

What we are looking for is what we have reason to believe in, or what we have reason not to believe in. That's it.

What some atheist says is only as good as the logic he puts behind his statements.
 
Wow. That you cannot understand the anthropomorphic use of 'selfish' for lay people and non-scientists is very sad. Again, your entire stated professional background is completely unbelievable. And yes, he explained the comparison all thru the book.

You were supposed to learn a foundation for evolution...it if you deliberately chose not to learn anything...I'm sure you know from your 'teacher' days that you cant force kids to learn. But for you to believe you know more than the author on the critical concepts and processes? Nearly all still stand today and they laid the groundwork for research to come.

You, like many religious people, "need" for your belief in creationism or ID (same thing using pseudoscience) to be true, so you use science 'backwards'...you have the result you must believe, and then manipulate science to 'prove it.' IMO, people this incapable of grasping reality should never be in charge of 'molding young minds' in the classroom.
I see your mistake.

I did not need to learn the foundation of evolution. I was already well aware of that. That is not what The Selfish Gene is about anyway.

You should have recommended The Blind Watchmaker, at least it tries to refute ID. But I guess if you recommend books you havent read just based on the title and a Google search, its going to be random like that.
 
I always find questions like this funny. It's almost as if you believe that atheism is a cult with a leader. Maybe that's just what you relate to.

It wouldn't matter what Dawkins said. It doesn't matter what any particular atheist says or does. Atheism isn't born out of the words of a "leader". People that I've met that are atheists, aren't followers.

What we are looking for is what we have reason to believe in, or what we have reason not to believe in. That's it.

What some atheist says is only as good as the logic he puts behind his statements.
Yes, that question isn't one I would ask you. It was directed at a person who does have the mentality of a cult follower.
 
I hope this isn't method acting Because it isn't very convincing.

BTW, if Dawkins himself said that it is possible that life on Earth was started by a sentient being, would that change your mind about ID or change your mind about Dawkins?
Not unless there was scientific evidence behind it.

I'm not a huge Dawkins fan btw...is your grasp of the field of evolutionary biology so limited that you think he's the only expert? There are many great researchers that have published in the field.

Let's remember here...I'm trying to provide you with resources for a foundation in a complicated scientific discipline. If you dont want to open your mind to it...that's up to you.
 
I see your mistake.

I did not need to learn the foundation of evolution. I was already well aware of that. That is not what The Selfish Gene is about anyway.

You should have recommended The Blind Watchmaker, at least it tries to refute ID. But I guess if you recommend books you havent read just based on the title and a Google search, its going to becrandom like that.
Sad that you cannot discuss anything and only lie. We all know you cant know what I have read...yet you lie to support your agenda as a cheap diversionary tactic.

And yes, you do need to learn the foundation of evolution. That you believe otherwise only reinforces it. That you deny The Blind Watchmaker's content is evidence right there. A closed mind cannot learn. You believe you KNOW the answers...so nothing science publishes that shows you wrong will manage to squeeze into your mind. 🤷

You have no idea what you are missing...the actual science behind life on earth is amazing and miraculous. And doesnt depend on a mythical sky man.

Btw, I'm not making up some lie like you are, but I am sure you didnt read the book. That's my opinion.
 
Sad that you cannot discuss anything and only lie. We all know you cant know what I have read...yet you lie to support your agenda as a cheap diversionary tactic.

And yes, you do need to learn the foundation of evolution. That you believe otherwise only reinforces it. That you deny The Blind Watchmaker's content is evidence right there. A closed mind cannot learn. You believe you KNOW the answers...so nothing science publishes that shows you wrong will manage to squeeze into your mind. 🤷

You have no idea what you are missing...the actual science behind life on earth is amazing and miraculous. And doesnt depend on a mythical sky man.

Btw, I'm not making up some lie like you are, but I am sure you didnt read the book. That's my opinion.
Your opinion is noted.

My opinion is that you sure type a lot.
 
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