"Respect for Women"

Sooo... I'm noticing (mostly in another thread of mine, but in other areas as well) that there seems to be a bit of confusion between people of different political persuasions regarding just what, exactly, "respect for women" actually is (hence why I have the term in quotes, rather than simply stating it). I have started this thread - at the risk of "kicking a hornet's nest" - in order to address that issue.

First, I am going to lay out my own thoughts on the matter - What "respect for women" is, what it is not, and where it becomes something of a gray area. Afterwards, people can feel free to either add their own definition, or critique my own.

Fair enough?

Okay! Let's begin.


What "Respect for Women" IS:


.. - Politeness and common courtesy

.........Self explanatory. Everyone is deserving of basic courtesy as a matter of course.

.. - Propriety / Avoidance of unnecessary vulgarity

........."Cat calling," extremely obvious and prolonged staring, unwanted touching, unnecessarily aggressive tactics in venues which are obviously inappropriate (work, for example), and etca, etca... There's just no reason for it. Honestly, this almost falls under "common courtesy" above. If you wouldn't treat anyone else a certain way, one should not behave in that manner towards a woman either.

.. - Appreciation of autonomy

.........Like anyone else, women, of course, have the right to do as they please. This also includes "taking no as an answer."



What "Respect for Women" IS NOT:


.. - Ideological allegiance with the Left

......... - Feminism, Pro-Choice, Hillary Clinton, etca, etca... Yeah, I'm sorry, but no. Too many people (generally, partisan Left Wingers pushing a 'War on Women' narrative) seem to think the Left and "Respect for Women" are synonymous, relegating anyone who disagrees to some "other" category. To the contrary, everything mentioned above is the product of a completely subjective political belief system, with aims that are only even necessarily "desirable" on a subjective basis as well. They have nothing to do with a person's inherent respect, or hatred for, "women" as a generalized whole.

.. - Putting women "on a pedestal"

.........To preface this, I will point out that there isn't necessarily anything wrong with giving women special consideration if a person wishes to do so. As a matter of courtesy, I will hold doors for women, pay on dates (assuming my budget allows it), offer them the choice of venue when we go out, not hit a girl even if she hits me, try to bring them to climax first in the bedroom, and etca, etca. I do those things because they are things that I want to do. However, I'm not going to claim that they are necessarily required to be "respectful to women" on a generalized basis (within reason, at least), because that's just not necessarily true.

Unfortunately, a lot of people (self-declared "feminist men" in particular) don't seem to understand this. That takes a couple of - genuinely obnoxious - "white knight" forms. i.e.

......... - Believing women are basically exempt from criticism or complaint

..................I'm sorry, but they're just not; either individually, or collectively. If they can rag on men. We can rag on them.

......... - Believing that any and every female decision must be respected and supported

..................Nope! If I can call a man an idiot, for behaving as an idiot, I can certainly do the same to a woman.

......... - Believing no male issue can have merit, because women are "oppressed"

..................Bull****. They are often separate issues, and it is possible for men to be disadvantaged in ways women are not.

.. - Acceptance of the "Rape Culture" mythos and everything it entails

..................Basically a subset of the above two, but prominent enough to be worth talking about in its own right. Believing that the supposed "rape epidemic" may, perhaps, be overstated, based upon questionable research, or just flat out trying to oversimplify an issue far more complicated than the political rhetoric suggests, does NOT automatically make one a "misogynist."

.. - Belief that women can do everything men can do, just as well

..................Biologically and scientifically speaking, they just can't. Sorry. :shrug:

Complicating Factors:




Basically, women - especially in today's "anything goes" trainwreck of culture - give men a lot of mixed signals regarding the traditional narrative of what is "respectful," and what is not.

While I can't say that I've ever seen a woman say that she liked street-side cat calling, I have met some who said that they don't actually mind men making comments some might consider "lewd" in other settings, even if they don't necessarily know them. Some don't mind men who make use of sexually aggressive, or even blatantly "handsy," tactics that feminists might want to classify as "assault" either.

In point of fact, in some environments, and with some women, the supposedly disrespectful "AAAYYY GURL!!!" approach is not only expected, but pretty much the only way a guy is going to get anything.

Some women even expect a guy to NOT "take no for an answer," and keep pushing for her affection anyway (I actually dated one briefly - It was REALLY weird lol ).

Why? Because a lot of those environments really aren't "respectful" in the first place, and neither are a lot of the women in question in them. Hell! The Millennial Generation as a whole isn't really made up of particularly "respectful," or even necessarily "nice," people in general, in my opinion. The "self-esteem, day care, and no spankings" generation just wasn't really bred with such things in mind, by and large.

I'll also be the first to admit to you that my own more passive, "old fashioned," and "respectful" approach really hasn't gotten me a lot in the way of sexual attention. It's actually gotten me taken advantage of on a number of occasions, in point of fact.

That's fine, and all. I stick with it anyway, just because that's what I want to do. However, it's not hard to see why many men eschew it for that exact reason either.

Today's "sexual marketplace" really is not either "black or white," but rather many different shades of cynical gray. I'm not quite so quick to condemn certain things, or jump on the "white knight" bandwagon, for that exact reason.

It's best to take matters on a "case-by-case" basis.


.............


In any eventuality, that's my two cents. Feel free to either flame it to your heart's content, or use the thread as it was intended, and offer your own analysis. :lol:

As a male, what entitles you to claim authority on this issue?

Phys251 said:

As a male, what entitles you to claim authority on this issue?

Click to expand...

What entitles any one person?

Re: "Respect for Women"

Phys251 said:

As a male, what entitles you to claim authority on this issue?

Click to expand...

Case in point of the "putting on a pedestal" mentioned above. :roll:

Why on Earth wouldn't I get to define the limits of my own beliefs and conduct?

Gathomas88 said:

Sooo... I'm noticing (mostly in another thread of mine, but in other areas as well) that there seems to be a bit of confusion between people of different political persuasions regarding just what, exactly, "respect for women" actually is (hence why I have the term in quotes, rather than simply stating it). I have started this thread - at the risk of "kicking a hornet's nest" - in order to address that issue.

First, I am going to lay out my own thoughts on the matter - What "respect for women" is, what it is not, and where it becomes something of a gray area. Afterwards, people can feel free to either add their own definition, or critique my own.

Fair enough?

Okay! Let's begin.


What "Respect for Women" IS:


.. - Politeness and common courtesy

.........Self explanatory. Everyone is deserving of basic courtesy as a matter of course.

.. - Propriety / Avoidance of unnecessary vulgarity

........."Cat calling," extremely obvious and prolonged staring, unwanted touching, unnecessarily aggressive tactics in venues which are obviously inappropriate (work, for example), and etca, etca... There's just no reason for it. Honestly, this almost falls under "common courtesy" above. If you wouldn't treat anyone else a certain way, one should not behave in that manner towards a woman either.

.. - Appreciation of autonomy

.........Like anyone else, women, of course, have the right to do as they please. This also includes "taking no as an answer."



What "Respect for Women" IS NOT:


.. - Ideological allegiance with the Left

......... - Feminism, Pro-Choice, Hillary Clinton, etca, etca... Yeah, I'm sorry, but no. Too many people (generally, partisan Left Wingers pushing a 'War on Women' narrative) seem to think the Left and "Respect for Women" are synonymous, relegating anyone who disagrees to some "other" category. To the contrary, everything mentioned above is the product of a completely subjective political belief system, with aims that are only even necessarily "desirable" on a subjective basis as well. They have nothing to do with a person's inherent respect, or hatred for, "women" as a generalized whole.

.. - Putting women "on a pedestal"

.........To preface this, I will point out that there isn't necessarily anything wrong with giving women special consideration if a person wishes to do so. As a matter of courtesy, I will hold doors for women, pay on dates (assuming my budget allows it), offer them the choice of venue when we go out, not hit a girl even if she hits me, try to bring them to climax first in the bedroom, and etca, etca. I do those things because they are things that I want to do. However, I'm not going to claim that they are necessarily required to be "respectful to women" on a generalized basis (within reason, at least), because that's just not necessarily true.

Unfortunately, a lot of people (self-declared "feminist men" in particular) don't seem to understand this. That takes a couple of - genuinely obnoxious - "white knight" forms. i.e.

......... - Believing women are basically exempt from criticism or complaint

..................I'm sorry, but they're just not; either individually, or collectively. If they can rag on men. We can rag on them.

......... - Believing that any and every female decision must be respected and supported

..................Nope! If I can call a man an idiot, for behaving as an idiot, I can certainly do the same to a woman.

......... - Believing no male issue can have merit, because women are "oppressed"

..................Bull****. They are often separate issues, and it is possible for men to be disadvantaged in ways women are not.

.. - Acceptance of the "Rape Culture" mythos and everything it entails

..................Basically a subset of the above two, but prominent enough to be worth talking about in its own right. Believing that the supposed "rape epidemic" may, perhaps, be overstated, based upon questionable research, or just flat out trying to oversimplify an issue far more complicated than the political rhetoric suggests, does NOT automatically make one a "misogynist."

Click to expand...

I'm really not convinced there are a special set of rules, if you will, to show respect for women. Maybe thinking the rules are somehow different for showing respect for women (as opposed for EVERYONE) is the problem.

Re: "Respect for Women"

Gathomas88 said:

Case in point of the "putting on a pedestal" mentioned above. :roll:

Why on Earth wouldn't I get to define the limits of my own beliefs and conduct?

Click to expand...

You don't get to prove a negative. You must first prove that you have the authority to speak on this issue. That was a pretty lengthy OP, and I would like to know what your credentials are that let you to these conclusions.

Re: "Respect for Women"

Why do we need a thread on what respect for women is? Treat them as equals. It isn't rocket science.

Re: "Respect for Women"

Phys251 said:

You don't get to prove a negative. You must first prove that you have the authority to speak on this issue. That was a pretty lengthy OP, and I would like to know what your credentials are that let you to these conclusions.

Click to expand...

Who would have the credentials to speak on this issue and what would those credentials be exactly? Just curious.

Re: "Respect for Women"

Phys251 said:

You don't get to prove a negative. You must first prove that you have the authority to speak on this issue. That was a pretty lengthy OP, and I would like to know what your credentials are that let you to these conclusions.

Click to expand...

Pardon my interference, but our OP needs to prove no such thing. And neither do you for being a seeming authority on "the rules." Gath's post is his opinion. Yours is the same. See how that works?

Re: "Respect for Women"

MrPeanut said:

Why do we need a thread on what respect for women is? Treat them as equals. It isn't rocket science.

Click to expand...

EQUALS? I will NOT accept that demotion.

Re: "Respect for Women"

Phys251 said:

You don't get to prove a negative. You must first prove that you have the authority to speak on this issue. That was a pretty lengthy OP, and I would like to know what your credentials are that let you to these conclusions.

Click to expand...

Obviously, the OP was meant to serve as an editorial, expressing my own opinions on the matter. My "authority" is my self, speaking as a man, with experience dealing both with women and other men whom I would consider to be "disrespectful."

Take that as you wi.

Who's "authority" are you suggesting we take, and why is it necessarily greater than any other?

MrPeanut said:

Why do we need a thread on what respect for women is? Treat them as equals. It isn't rocket science.

Click to expand...

Clearly, because a non-trivially large, and rather loud, portion of population has some rather loopy ideas regarding just what exactly that means, in practical terms.



Sent from my LGLS992 using Tapatalk

Re: "Respect for Women"

MaggieD said:

Pardon my interference, but our OP needs to prove no such thing. And neither do you for being a seeming authority on "the rules." Gath's post is his opinion. Yours is the same. See how that works?

Click to expand...

Really? Is that right.

Re: "Respect for Women"

MrPeanut said:

Why do we need a thread on what respect for women is? Treat them as equals. It isn't rocket science.

Click to expand...

It apparently is. People from all different belief structures have similar problems when it comes to the issue. Of course, they all rationalize the same behavior in different ways.

Re: "Respect for Women"

Gathomas88 said:

Obviously, the OP was meant to serve as an editorial, expressing my own opinions on the matter. My "authority" is my self, speaking as a man, with experience dealing both with women and other men who I would consider to be "disrespectful."

Take that as you.

Who's "authority" are you suggesting we take, and why is it necessarily greater than any other?

Click to expand...

What do you think that I would suggest?

I think you have it about right. And when I run across a woman who seems to think she has the right to complain about things I do, but not vice versa, or who shows no sympathy for the problems I face as a man, even while expecting me to be sympathetic to the problems women face, I'm going to go the other way. Why? Because those attitudes tell me she is a self-centered person who thinks she's entitled to be treated better than she's willing to treat me. Stay around in spite of that, and she will soon despise you as a spineless chump for putting up with her garbage. On the other hand, I find a sense of fair play very attractive in a woman, because it tells me she could be not just a lover, but a friend who cared about my thoughts and feelings.

Re: "Respect for Women"

If you live from the heart and not from your momentary emotions or mental rules; if you live with compassion for all people; and if you see everyone as coming from the same place, fundamentally, then it should be a simple exercise in knowing how women should be treated.

They should be treated like any other human being -- with dignity, respect, compassion, and integrity.

This "othering" of women into another species with special rules is a sign of the problem, not the solution. Chivalry has never cured disrespect for women, it has only concealed it under social niceties to make societal culture feel more civilized.

If you're in your heart then you don't have to try to be nice, you just are.

It's the difference between boy psychology and man psychology. Some adult males never make the transition.

I blame Hollywood.


How many movies have we watched we're the main character is basically a complete loser, but manages to do ONE thing right, and in addition, keeps pressing the girl he wants, remains eternally persistent, and by the end, he gets the girl.


Ladies.


All those rom com movies you crave....well, this is what comes of that.

Gathomas88 said:

Sooo... I'm noticing (mostly in another thread of mine, but in other areas as well) that there seems to be a bit of confusion between people of different political persuasions regarding just what, exactly, "respect for women" actually is (hence why I have the term in quotes, rather than simply stating it). I have started this thread - at the risk of "kicking a hornet's nest" - in order to address that issue.

First, I am going to lay out my own thoughts on the matter - What "respect for women" is, what it is not, and where it becomes something of a gray area. Afterwards, people can feel free to either add their own definition, or critique my own.

Fair enough?

Okay! Let's begin.


What "Respect for Women" IS:


.. - Politeness and common courtesy

.........Self explanatory. Everyone is deserving of basic courtesy as a matter of course.

.. - Propriety / Avoidance of unnecessary vulgarity

........."Cat calling," extremely obvious and prolonged staring, unwanted touching, unnecessarily aggressive tactics in venues which are obviously inappropriate (work, for example), and etca, etca... There's just no reason for it. Honestly, this almost falls under "common courtesy" above. If you wouldn't treat anyone else a certain way, one should not behave in that manner towards a woman either.

.. - Appreciation of autonomy

.........Like anyone else, women, of course, have the right to do as they please. This also includes "taking no as an answer."



What "Respect for Women" IS NOT:


.. - Ideological allegiance with the Left

......... - Feminism, Pro-Choice, Hillary Clinton, etca, etca... Yeah, I'm sorry, but no. Too many people (generally, partisan Left Wingers pushing a 'War on Women' narrative) seem to think the Left and "Respect for Women" are synonymous, relegating anyone who disagrees to some "other" category. To the contrary, everything mentioned above is the product of a completely subjective political belief system, with aims that are only even necessarily "desirable" on a subjective basis as well. They have nothing to do with a person's inherent respect, or hatred for, "women" as a generalized whole.

.. - Putting women "on a pedestal"

.........To preface this, I will point out that there isn't necessarily anything wrong with giving women special consideration if a person wishes to do so. As a matter of courtesy, I will hold doors for women, pay on dates (assuming my budget allows it), offer them the choice of venue when we go out, not hit a girl even if she hits me, try to bring them to climax first in the bedroom, and etca, etca. I do those things because they are things that I want to do. However, I'm not going to claim that they are necessarily required to be "respectful to women" on a generalized basis (within reason, at least), because that's just not necessarily true.

Unfortunately, a lot of people (self-declared "feminist men" in particular) don't seem to understand this. That takes a couple of - genuinely obnoxious - "white knight" forms. i.e.

......... - Believing women are basically exempt from criticism or complaint

..................I'm sorry, but they're just not; either individually, or collectively. If they can rag on men. We can rag on them.

......... - Believing that any and every female decision must be respected and supported

..................Nope! If I can call a man an idiot, for behaving as an idiot, I can certainly do the same to a woman.

......... - Believing no male issue can have merit, because women are "oppressed"

..................Bull****. They are often separate issues, and it is possible for men to be disadvantaged in ways women are not.

.. - Acceptance of the "Rape Culture" mythos and everything it entails

..................Basically a subset of the above two, but prominent enough to be worth talking about in its own right. Believing that the supposed "rape epidemic" may, perhaps, be overstated, based upon questionable research, or just flat out trying to oversimplify an issue far more complicated than the political rhetoric suggests, does NOT automatically make one a "misogynist."

Click to expand...

Want to kick a hornets nest start a thread called "Respect for Men", see what happens.

Re: "Respect for Women"

Phys251 said:

You don't get to prove a negative. You must first prove that you have the authority to speak on this issue. That was a pretty lengthy OP, and I would like to know what your credentials are that let you to these conclusions.

Click to expand...

What is your authority to speak on this issue? I would like to know what your credentials are for doubting the OP's conclusions. No one here has to prove anything to you. If you disagree with the OP, just state what your disagreements are and explain them.

Re: "Respect for Women"

Phys251 said:

What do you think that I would suggest?

Click to expand...

No one cares.

Re: "Respect for Women"

matchlight said:

What is your authority to speak on this issue? I would like to know what your credentials are for doubting the OP's conclusions.

Click to expand...

I'm sorry, credentials are required just to question someone else's position? Damn, I think my license expires in about 80 years or so.

Re: "Respect for Women"

Harshaw said:

No one cares.

Click to expand...

He's going to claim that only women should have the authority.

Ya know... Because there's no way at all that a group privileged with the unquestioned ability to unilaterally dictate how the rest of the world should interact with it might either abuse such power, or let it go to their heads (like they accuse men of doing for the last 10,000 or so years). :roll:

Like I said, they're not actually "respecting" women. They're putting them on an absurd pedestal because they, for some reason, assume women are inherently superior to men.

Just the usual self-loathing Lefty "guilt-culture" crap.

Re: "Respect for Women"

Gathomas88 said:

He's going to claim that only women should have the authority.

Ya know... Because there's no way at all that a group privileged with the unquestioned ability to unilaterally dictate how the rest of the world should interact with it might either abuse such power, or let it go to their heads (like they accuse men of doing for the last 10,000 or so years). :roll:

Click to expand...

Where are these women and how do I meet them?

Like I said, they're not actually "respecting" women. They're putting them on an absurd pedestal because they, for some reason, assume women are inherently superior to men.

Just the usual self-loathing Lefty "guilt-culture" crap.

Click to expand...

:lamo

Gathomas88 said:

.. - Appreciation of autonomy

Click to expand...

I read this, twice, as 'appreciation of anatomy'....