[Florida] Redistricting battle lines drawn in Florida

[Disputatious71]

Politico: Redistricting battle lines drawn in Florida

Rep. Corrine Brown enjoys one of the most airtight districts in Florida: a thin, nine-county snake whose constituents have sent her to Washington for nearly two decades.

So it’s little surprise the Democrat is fighting a new, so-called fair districts state law that threatens to slice and dice her district beyond recognition.

Without a doubt, if fair districts were enforced, that district would be chopped up. It would not exist,” said Jim Kitchens, an Orlando-area Democratic pollster.

“It’s the absolute poster child for bad lines,” said Bert Ralston, a GOP strategist in Jacksonville.

Their is heated debate from the city, county and state levels as well as the Federal on where the new districting lines will be drawn. I know that it makes for some major difficulties and costs when some voting districts have up to two dozen ballots, not to mention that some want to throw in ethnicity or fractional politics over ethics in how some districts are shaped. The Florida state legislature will be convening earlier than usual strictly because of the census data and the redistricting. It looks to be a hotbed issue which will again divide the citizenry along partisan, ethnic, economic, or any combination thereof lines. I hope that their will be level headed and fair (read not one sided) compromises that are based on common sense and congruent boundaries.

 

[rocket88]

I hate the way districting is done in this country. It's just a tool used by the party in power to get more of their people elected. While one party will draw these weird districts, sometimes they're kept by the other party as a way to "limit the damage." (Ghetto-izing the opposition, in effect). Michele Bachmann's district here in MN is a perfect example.

Obviously, something has changed around there to make Republicans feel confident that they can gain by chopping this district up.

What's sad is that Republicans are going to be able to use this issue to paint themselves as being in favor of fair districts. The fact is if the roles were reversed, the parties would have the opposite stances to where they are right now.

 

[Patrickt]

It's been awhile for me but haven't federal courts held that some districts have to have a majority of black voters so black representatives are more likely to be elected?

 

[Disputatious71]

It's been awhile for me but haven't federal courts held that some districts have to have a majority of black voters so black representatives are more likely to be elected?

I doubt it since that would also mean that some districts would have to have a majority of Latino, Caucasian, or Asian voters which would most likely result in some form of lawsuit for discrimination or such.

 

[Disputatious71]

I hate the way districting is done in this country. It's just a tool used by the party in power to get more of their people elected. While one party will draw these weird districts, sometimes they're kept by the other party as a way to "limit the damage." (Ghetto-izing the opposition, in effect). Michele Bachmann's district here in MN is a perfect example.

Obviously, something has changed around there to make Republicans feel confident that they can gain by chopping this district up.

What's sad is that Republicans are going to be able to use this issue to paint themselves as being in favor of fair districts. The fact is if the roles were reversed, the parties would have the opposite stances to where they are right now.

Your comments seem to be very anti-Republican you do realize they do not control every district in the state, nor will they have Obamacare control over districting lines in the state, not even mentioning that the county and city lines are not influenced by political parties as much as they are local interest.

 

[Jeezy]

Allen West's district:

Those are, quite literally, the whitest most gentrified areas of Palm Beach County. Clay Shaw kept that district red from it's creation in 1993 to 2007....fourteen years. It was briefly blue in the 2008 rout (for 3 years) and now West has it red again.

Now look at this:

The black country folk district. Blue since inception in 2002.

The white lower middle income district, combined with some richer polo-playing areas. Notice how they chop the Lake Okeechobee area for no reason, putting all the poorest and blackest areas together. This is a red stronghold.

 

[Disputatious71]

Allen West's district:
Those are, quite literally, the whitest most gentrified areas of Palm Beach County. Clay Shaw kept that district red from it's creation in 1993 to 2007....fourteen years. It was briefly blue in the 2008 rout (for 3 years) and now West has it red again.

Yet they voted in a Tea Party candidate who was not the whitest candidate offered in the primary...

You appear to believe I am for gerrymandering in some way, why is that? I do not agree with incongruent districts neither do I agree with districts being drawn/shifted along party/ethnic lines. The districts in many states are drawn inappropriately and the only consideration which should apply when considering new lines, such as is presented by the close of the last decade and the current census data, is local interests of business, community, and well defined congruent borders.

As a side note two recently (2010 election cycle) passed amendments aim to stop the redrawing of such lines and we get to see how these guidelines will play out in the next legislative session.
STANDARDS FOR LEGISLATURE TO FOLLOW IN LEGISLATIVE REDISTRICTING
STANDARDS FOR LEGISLATURE TO FOLLOW IN CONGRESSIONAL REDISTRICTING

 

[rocket88]

Your comments seem to be very anti-Republican you do realize they do not control every district in the state, nor will they have Obamacare control over districting lines in the state, not even mentioning that the county and city lines are not influenced by political parties as much as they are local interest.

What is "Obamacare control" and what exactly does Obama have to do with redistricting in Florida? Your comments seem very anti-Democrat. Christ, you guys will turn anything into "Obama is evil."

Did you read what I said, or are you just trying to paint me as a socialist? I said "I hate the way districting is done...It's just a tool used by the party in power." I did later "accuse" Republicans of being politicians. OH THE HORROR!!!! I mean, I must be a terrible lefty to say Republicans are politicians and will use something to their political advantage. We all know that politics is only played on the Left....

 

[Risky Thicket]

Gerrymandering is wrong, no matter who does it. Gerrymandering is not about serving people - as politicians are supposed to do - it's about serving politicians. Gerrymandering yet another thing that all people should stand up in unison and tell state and federal governments to "Stop it, period. No more, no excuses, no shucking and jiving. You got what you got, but now it ends. I want America back."

 

[Disputatious71]

What is "Obamacare control" and what exactly does Obama have to do with redistricting in Florida? Your comments seem very anti-Democrat. Christ, you guys will turn anything into "Obama is evil."

Did you read what I said, or are you just trying to paint me as a socialist? I said "I hate the way districting is done...It's just a tool used by the party in power." I did later "accuse" Republicans of being politicians. OH THE HORROR!!!! I mean, I must be a terrible lefty to say Republicans are politicians and will use something to their political advantage. We all know that politics is only played on the Left....

"Obamacare control" means to force one parties legislation/ideas/judgment down the throat of the constituency no matter which party is in control or what the constituency wants. As for choosing sides that was you doing so by singling out one party over the other, being a centrist as you claim it would be hard to strictly blame one side unless one is not really centered. Oh, by the way can you please point out where I made the implication that Obama has anything to do with redistricting in Florida as you claim I did? If not it appears one of us really did not read what was said...

 

[Jeezy]

Yet they voted in a Tea Party candidate who was not the whitest candidate offered in the primary...

You already refuted yourself. In terms of politics, Allen West's blackness is almost accidental.

You appear to believe I am for gerrymandering in some way, why is that? I do not agree with incongruent districts neither do I agree with districts being drawn/shifted along party/ethnic lines. The districts in many states are drawn inappropriately and the only consideration which should apply when considering new lines, such as is presented by the close of the last decade and the current census data, is local interests of business, community, and well defined congruent borders.

Then you don't believe in any of those above 3 districts.

 

[Disputatious71]

You already refuted yourself. In terms of politics, Allen West's blackness is almost accidental.

Is this kinda like Obama's blackness?

Then you don't believe in any of those above 3 districts.

I believe they are what we have had to deal with before the 2 new amendments and this current census data cycle. Now do you wish to scream about the past districts or discuss the future districts?

 

[rocket88]

Oh, by the way can you please point out where I made the implication that Obama has anything to do with redistricting in Florida as you claim I did? If not it appears one of us really did not read what was said...

You're the one who brought up his name.

And I stand by my statement that Republicans are politicians. It's hilarious how the right thinks you're a raging liberal if you attack the GOP. It's like they think "centrist" means "Republican." In this case, Republicans are the ones getting rid of this district. Why? Because they think that there's a chance they can win if they do. No other reason. If districts that made total sense were disadvantageous to them, they wouldn't be pushing it. Winning is the only thing that matters to either party. Neither cares about right or wrong as much as they do right or left.

 

[Disputatious71]

You're the one who brought up his name.

Where is it I brought up Obama specifically ? You are the one that actually referred to the President by name not I.

And I stand by my statement that Republicans are politicians. It's hilarious how the right thinks you're a raging liberal if you attack the GOP. It's like they think "centrist" means "Republican." In this case, Republicans are the ones getting rid of this district. Why? Because they think that there's a chance they can win if they do. No other reason. If districts that made total sense were disadvantageous to them, they wouldn't be pushing it. Winning is the only thing that matters to either party. Neither cares about right or wrong as much as they do right or left.

Republicans are not pushing to do anything with districting it is the Census data and the law of the land to redistrict. It has nothing to do with advantage or winning, for a centrist you seem to be rather concerned about right/left and appear to be pushing the division, I am curious are Democrats politicians as well? You seem to be rather intent on presuming corruption and unfairness when the districts have yet to be addressed by the state or federal government. Another thing is it your opinion that Republicans are the only ones in charge of the state/country or just redistricting?

 

[samsmart]

Gerrymandering is wrong, no matter who does it. Gerrymandering is not about serving people - as politicians are supposed to do - it's about serving politicians. Gerrymandering yet another thing that all people should stand up in unison and tell state and federal governments to "Stop it, period. No more, no excuses, no shucking and jiving. You got what you got, but now it ends. I want America back."

That's not true. Sometimes, gerrymandering can be a good thing.

The reason why that district snakes around the way it does is because that area is likely to vote Democrat, while the areas around it are likely to vote Republican.

Why shouldn't those sliver of people be represented by a Democrat politician? If they are going to vote for Democrats then they should be allowed to be represented by Democrats.

And yes, I would say the exact same thing if it was a Republican district.

 

[Phys251]

That the political institutions can determine their own district lines is absurd. I am normally not one to lump the two parties together in terms of poor decisions made, but in this case, both of them have gerrymandered. A LOT.

 

[Disputatious71]

That the political institutions can determine their own district lines is absurd. I am normally not one to lump the two parties together in terms of poor decisions made, but in this case, both of them have gerrymandered. A LOT.

Can you please explain how you believe the process is broken and offer up possible solutions to the absurd and poor decisions and how its possible that only in the field of redistricting it can be that BOTH parties will gerrymander successfully when the process is scrutinized and debated very heavily from the people all the way up to the White House, including every municipality, county, state and federal agency and all their representative.

 

[Phys251]

Can you please explain how you believe the process is broken and offer up possible solutions to the absurd and poor decisions and how its possible that only in the field of redistricting it can be that BOTH parties will gerrymander successfully when the process is scrutinized and debated very heavily from the people all the way up to the White House, including every municipality, county, state and federal agency and all their representative.

You want details? OK, fair enough.

I do want to first address your concern about gerrymandered districts, though. That can be answered simply by looking at the district maps on NationalAtlas.gov. When you get bizarrely-shaped districts such as these:

You know something funny's going on with the way the lines are drawn. Mind you, that's not even counting the gerrymandering that stacks votes into one district that look somewhat reasonably-shaped at first glance.

I read a website years ago that suggested writing a computer program that recursively divides up a state solely due to its population, adjusted only to avoid splitting apart individual precincts. I.e., let's say that you've got a state with six districts. The computer draws a line that divides the state in half along a line roughly from north to south. (It could just as easily be east-to-west, but whatever way it goes, that has to be standardized BEFORE running the program.) Have the computer run down the line and alternate giving split precincts to either side, always adjusting solely in the name of balance. (I.e., West side of the state is currently +600 voters. Next split precinct automatically goes east. But since that shift gives East +800 voters, West gets the next split. Etc.) Once that split is done, you have two sections each with three districts to form. So make a 2-to-1 split in each of them, in the same manner as above, and then split the remaining one. You'd have to standardize what direction each new line would run; I suggest alternating between roughly east-west lines and north-south lines. It would not take much additional coding to write a program that could split a state of any size, as it would simply split among the ratio of whatever portion is left at each split.

The only real drawback is not always taking into account natural land forms, particularly large rivers and lakes, that would make oddly-shaped districts. But you could allow for a clause that, with an absurdly large majority (I'm thinking at least 75% here), a state legislature could move around a maximum of, say, 5% of these recommended precinct allocations. More importantly, other than that, I think this could largely, if not entirely, eliminate the practice of gerrymandering districts to favor incumbents or one political party.

OR, there's always proportional representation, which I am a huge fan of!

 

[Disputatious71]

You want details? OK, fair enough.

I do want to first address your concern about gerrymandered districts, though. That can be answered simply by looking at the district maps on NationalAtlas.gov. When you get bizarrely-shaped districts such as these:

You know something funny's going on with the way the lines are drawn. Mind you, that's not even counting the gerrymandering that stacks votes into one district that look somewhat reasonably-shaped at first glance.

I read a website years ago that suggested writing a computer program that recursively divides up a state solely due to its population, adjusted only to avoid splitting apart individual precincts. I.e., let's say that you've got a state with six districts. The computer draws a line that divides the state in half along a line roughly from north to south. (It could just as easily be east-to-west, but whatever way it goes, that has to be standardized BEFORE running the program.) Have the computer run down the line and alternate giving split precincts to either side, always adjusting solely in the name of balance. (I.e., West side of the state is currently +600 voters. Next split precinct automatically goes east. But since that shift gives East +800 voters, West gets the next split. Etc.) Once that split is done, you have two sections each with three districts to form. So make a 2-to-1 split in each of them, in the same manner as above, and then split the remaining one. You'd have to standardize what direction each new line would run; I suggest alternating between roughly east-west lines and north-south lines. It would not take much additional coding to write a program that could split a state of any size, as it would simply split among the ratio of whatever portion is left at each split.

The only real drawback is not always taking into account natural land forms, particularly large rivers and lakes, that would make oddly-shaped districts. But you could allow for a clause that, with an absurdly large majority (I'm thinking at least 75% here), a state legislature could move around a maximum of, say, 5% of these recommended precinct allocations. More importantly, other than that, I think this could largely, if not entirely, eliminate the practice of gerrymandering districts to favor incumbents or one political party.

OR, there's always proportional representation, which I am a huge fan of!

None of those maps are funny in any way if you consider the population density and areas needed in some locations, also in Texas, I could be wrong on this case the lines most likely are blocks or tracts of ranches or lat/long lines, also you might want to check the natural boundaries such as rivers, major highways, or prominent features in considering what you call funny. Natural boundaries while not a uniform shape or density could very well be fairly drawn when one only considers population within census blocks, just because they do not look pretty and neat does not make them gerrymandered, it is my opinion that you believe gerrymandering is the creating of districts that do not have parallel borders ! Also the subject here is the Florida redistricting and the new amendments that those lines must be drown under, another point which you fail to address is the Florida redistricting mapping software the legislature will be using is also open to the public who are able to submit maps as well to the process. It seems to me you believe every square mile of every state has the same population density so you support equally divided districts by area and not population.

 

[Phys251]

None of those maps are funny in any way if you consider the population density and areas needed in some locations, also in Texas, I could be wrong on this case the lines most likely are blocks or tracts of ranches or lat/long lines, also you might want to check the natural boundaries such as rivers, major highways, or prominent features in considering what you call funny. Natural boundaries while not a uniform shape or density could very well be fairly drawn when one only considers population within census blocks, just because they do not look pretty and neat does not make them gerrymandered, it is my opinion that you believe gerrymandering is the creating of districts that do not have parallel borders ! Also the subject here is the Florida redistricting and the new amendments that those lines must be drown under, another point which you fail to address is the Florida redistricting mapping software the legislature will be using is also open to the public who are able to submit maps as well to the process. It seems to me you believe every square mile of every state has the same population density so you support equally divided districts by area and not population.

No, I do mean population. And are you sure that TX-19 isn't gerrymandered?

I bring in examples of other states simply because I believe that the problem exists well beyond the state of Florida. I haven't seen the old vs. new maps yet, but I'll be willing to bet that they are being redrawn to benefit the party in power. The biggest problem I have with such redistricting is that it looks at precincts' voting habits and shapes the districts around that, rather than having that fall along merely coincidental divisions, by a computer code that is given zero knowledge of the precincts' voting habits.

The borders in my proposal do not have to be perfectly straight. I addressed how a simple coding solution could alter that.

There used to be an example of precisely what I'm talking about online, but for the life of me, I can't find it. If I find it soon, I'll post it here.

 

[Disputatious71]

No, I do mean population. And are you sure that TX-19 isn't gerrymandered?

Can you prove it was drawn ONLY to reelect the incumbent and not because of population parity or just not being a nice perfect square?

I bring in examples of other states simply because I believe that the problem exists well beyond the state of Florida. I haven't seen the old vs. new maps yet, but I'll be willing to bet that they are being redrawn to benefit the party in power. The biggest problem I have with such redistricting is that it looks at precincts' voting habits and shapes the districts around that, rather than having that fall along merely coincidental divisions, by a computer code that is given zero knowledge of the precincts' voting habits.

The borders in my proposal do not have to be perfectly straight. I addressed how a simple coding solution could alter that.

There used to be an example of precisely what I'm talking about online, but for the life of me, I can't find it. If I find it soon, I'll post it here.

You can believe they are being drawn by the party in power all you like. With the attention always drawn to redistricting, it amazes me that gerrymandering is always assumed as well the assumption that no one ever takes interest in where the lines are or why they are drawn. The two new amendments in Florida, which all redistricting at the state and federal level must follow, will make suspect districts be held under more scrutiny. Your biggest problem with redistricting "that it looks at precincts' voting habits" is not data even considered in the process, which is solely based upon US Census population block data which reflects only population density per block as well as racial data on the block (% Caucasian, Black, Hispanic etc.)

 

[Phys251]

Can you prove it was drawn ONLY to reelect the incumbent and not because of population parity or just not being a nice perfect square?



You can believe they are being drawn by the party in power all you like. With the attention always drawn to redistricting, it amazes me that gerrymandering is always assumed as well the assumption that no one ever takes interest in where the lines are or why they are drawn. The two new amendments in Florida, which all redistricting at the state and federal level must follow, will make suspect districts be held under more scrutiny. Your biggest problem with redistricting "that it looks at precincts' voting habits" is not data even considered in the process, which is solely based upon US Census population block data which reflects only population density per block as well as racial data on the block (% Caucasian, Black, Hispanic etc.)

Now wait just a minute. You're asking me to prove a negative here. You're suggesting that there were legitimate reasons for the bizarrely-shaped districts above? The burden of proof lies with those who designed or support them, not with those who critique them.

I'm honestly not that familiar with the process down in Florida. It looks like the proposed map or maps haven't yet been announced, am I right?

 

[samsmart]

How about instead of having extremely small single-member districts we instead make large multiple-member districts and use a proportional representation voting system?

That way, all the voters within a district will be represented by their party and we won't have to cut up congressional districts in screwy ways in order to ensure it.

That's the solution I would prefer.

 

[Disputatious71]

Now wait just a minute. You're asking me to prove a negative here. You're suggesting that there were legitimate reasons for the bizarrely-shaped districts above? The burden of proof lies with those who designed or support them, not with those who critique them.

I'm honestly not that familiar with the process down in Florida. It looks like the proposed map or maps haven't yet been announced, am I right?

All your questions about the FL redistricting can be found here... LINK

 

[Phys251]

All your questions about the FL redistricting can be found here... LINK

Oh, they haven't actually proposed the lines, then?