Raped 9-Year-Old Has Abortion

Vader · Mar 9, 2009

jallman said:
Excuse me? Since when did Catholics become nonchristians? You do realize that we are the seat of Christianity...the origin.

The rest of you protestant dogs split off from us so don't you dare tell us we are not Christians. That was the most ignorant thing I think I have EVER heard on this forum.

Protestant Dogs? You mean when the English split from the Catholic church because of the Catholic's nazi view of divorce? The King of England discovered he could run his country without Papal interference once he formed the Church of England.

While I realize your church in run by a Nazi, that does not excuse your behavior. You really need to curb check your catholonazism.

I am entitled to my opinion. I survived Catholic grade school; also Catholics were not the first Christians but there were some of the most violent and power hungry than most.

Vader · Mar 9, 2009

Felicity said:
My very tall 8-almost 9 year old is still under 5 feet--AND the Brazilian girl was carrying twins.

The power the Church wields is over the moral formation of her followers. Are you suggesting that the Church should not teach her people what she believes is morally correct? I agree that direct influence is inappropriate, but just like in the Pelosi thread, if one does not want to conform his life to the teachings of the Church, one can renounce Catholicism and find a religion that suits him better.

Regardless, she was a raped victim carrying twins. She weighs 80 pounds. There is NOT A CHANCE IN HELL that her uterus is large enough to accommodate a SINGLE child ... let alone a set if twins. Carrying a single one of those babies to term WOULD MOST CERTAINLY HAVE KILLED THE GIRL.

Felicity said:
No--and it will never happen. As it is, if a pregnancy is life-threatening, the Catholic Church DOES recognize self-defense as a just reason for ending a pregnancy. That's why I fear there MUST be more to this story, the Church has spent the last 2000 years figuring out all sorts of moral ambiguities and philosophizing the proper course. She doesn't act rashly. Again, I am surprised by the bishop even commenting on it, but since it is clearly a VERY political environment concerning the topic, perhaps he felt he needed to state the Church's stance on aiding an abortion.

They do--but when the intention is to kill the baby, rather than protect the physical life of the mother from likely death, then abortion is NOT justified--ever. The babies are a second and third victim of the rape of their mother (how sad to use that word for a 9 year old girl) except, those two where killed as a result of the crime. This is no good all around.

Apparently, the Catholic church in Brazil does not. The Arch Bishop is an asshat and he needs to be defrocked.

That 9 year-old's life was in jeopardy the minute she was impregnated. There is not a 9 year-old female in this world who is physically developed enough to carry a child to term. Yet... you have no problem bad-mouthing this girl, who was carrying twins, because she got an abortion.

The intent of the abortion(s) carried out on this child was to save her life.

Felicity said:
I will be seriously pissed if the facts show that she was older, or it was a set up, or some other such nonsense. People--especially children--should not be political pawns.

I agree.

Vader · Mar 9, 2009

Felicity said:
After reading around a bit--I have to say, I'm a little suspicious. Abortion is illegal in Brazil, and there is a very vocal movement that wants it legal. The president and the health minister both are interested in changing the laws--this is a perfect case to incite outrage. Further, just in July, the Brazilian legislature rejected a bill to legalize it. Like I said....I'm suspicious.

EDIT: ...and just February 10th, the Pope himself specifically urged the Brazilian leaders to keep Abortion illegal.... Pope Urges Brazilian Leadership to Keep Abortion and Euthanasia Illegal

The circumstances surrounding the "timing" of this story are getting curiouser and curiouser....

.

Adolf Poplar needs to shut the **** up.

jallman · Mar 9, 2009

Vader said:
Protestant Dogs? You mean when the English split from the Catholic church because of the Catholic's nazi view of divorce? The King of England discovered he could run his country without Papal interference once he formed the Church of England.

While I realize your church in run by a Nazi, that does not excuse your behavior. You really need to curb check your catholonazism.

I am entitled to my opinion. I survived Catholic grade school; also Catholics were not the first Christians but there were some of the most violent and power hungry than most.

Your unbridled ignorance knows no bounds.

Vader · Mar 9, 2009

jallman said:
Your unbridled ignorance knows no bounds.

I am not the one who is a puppet of his church.

Arcana XV · Mar 9, 2009

Felicity said:
It's a hospital for sinners. You don't boot the sick out on the street just because your hospital is full of sick people. You diagnose them--try to tell them how to find the cure, hope and pray that they listen to your advice, and keep your doors open for when they are ready to get well.

Me thinks they're going to have to build a whole bunch of new wings to that hospital, because things are getting pretty cramped in there. But, in any case, that was a nice image.

Of course it's concerned about losing members, but not because they are concerned about their popularity--the Church is concerned about immortal souls being lost.

I wish I could be as sure of that as you are. It's a very nice sentiment. But I am from Rome, I know that what the Vatican is most concerned about is money. Losing followers means losing money. Unlike in the US, in many other countries Catholics must pay their Church taxes or run the risk of being excommunicated. There are parts of Switzerland where your income tax return asks you to declare your religion and specifically warns you of the consequences if you declare yourself a Catholic and don't tick the box that will allow the Church to tax you.

So while I'm sure that there is some concern about the immortal souls lost, the main reason for not wanting to lose them is more political and financial than spiritual. The Vatican is a country after all and like all countries, it needs money to thrive.

Christians--specifically Catholic Christians-- have survived the persecution of the Romans, for Pete's sake 2razzun!). Some bad press and pro-abortion propaganda will not destroy the Church... And, if it does become a tiny cult of fundamentalists--as long as they cleave to the Truth given by God in his Divine Revelation, there is nothing to fear. You can't kill someone who has eternal life.

I don't think the Church will be destroyed any time soon. I just think the bad press is helping a lot in eroding the support it gets.

Arcana XV · Mar 9, 2009

prometeus said:
In your opinion, how has the Church evolved in Europe?

It has compromised on a lot of things in order not to lose too many members. There was a time when a priest would refuse to marry you if you hadn't been attending mass regularly, or if if you had been "living in sin" beforehand, or if anyone brought the priest proof that the bride was not a virgin or a widow. They're also now granting marriage annulments for reasons that would have never flown in the not so distant past. The most famous case being the annulment of Princess Caroline of Monaco's first marriage.

The Church has become much more liberal here. There's no question of that.

The reason you have not heard of excommunications for abortion is because it is automatic according to Church teaching. What must be kept in mind is that through penance there is reinstatement and forgiveness too.

Acutally, let me rephrase what I meant to say. I understand that by having an abortion you automatically excommunicate yourself. What I meant to say is that no one has been excommunicated over here for allowing their child or teenager to have an abortion. I've also never heard of any doctor being excommunicated for it either.

The biggest problem in my eyes is how some of the representatives of the Church handle issues and events like this. For instance, what would have been your opinion if instead of the proclamation of excommunication the Bishop would have expressed his deep regrets over the terrible events, starting with condemnation of the rape of the child and the unfortunate path that was followed to abortion and expressing hope that through prayers and penance all involved will find their way back to the path to God?

Oh, I totally agree. The way this was handled by the local bishop was abysmally bad. Had he done what you propose, I would have had unending respect for the man. This is what the Church is supposed to do, provide support and guidance. Judgment and condemnation are not the way to go, nor is interfering in a person's private affairs or the country's political processes for that matter.

Jerry · Mar 9, 2009

Vader said:
Go goose-step elsewhere.

The girl is 9 years old.

Shame on you.

This post is a mark of honor :2wave:

Orion · Mar 9, 2009

A nine year old having one baby carries considerable risk, but two is exponentially higher. The structure of the pelvis in mature women has developed to accommodate a baby moving through the birth canal. A nine year old would lack this structure, which means her vaginal birth would cause considerable damage, or a cesarean would be essentially mandatory. A cesarean for a nine year old is unacceptable. Strictly from a medical standpoint, a nine year old being forced to have twins is simply shameful.

Lest we discuss the moral implications of forcing a rape victim to come to term. I would not want to pass on the DNA of the creep who did this, and the creep himself should be "aborted" from the remainder of his own life.

Felicity · Mar 9, 2009

Vader said:
That 9 year-old's life was in jeopardy the minute she was impregnated. There is not a 9 year-old female in this world who is physically developed enough to carry a child to term. .

The youngest mother ever ScienceRoll

Felicity · Mar 9, 2009

Arcana XV said:
Me thinks they're going to have to build a whole bunch of new wings to that hospital, because things are getting pretty cramped in there. But, in any case, that was a nice image.

The walking wounded...There are sinners everywhere.

Unlike in the US, in many other countries Catholics must pay their Church taxes or run the risk of being excommunicated. There are parts of Switzerland where your income tax return asks you to declare your religion and specifically warns you of the consequences if you declare yourself a Catholic and don't tick the box that will allow the Church to tax you.

Evidence? I don't believe this.

Edit: I found this In Europe, church taxes not unusual

It appears to be something morphed from prior feudal arrangements where landowners taxed subjects for maintenence...at any rate, it's not a big money making enterprise, and it's part of various governmental structures, not something mandated by the Vatican.

So while I'm sure that there is some concern about the immortal souls lost, the main reason for not wanting to lose them is more political and financial than spiritual. The Vatican is a country after all and like all countries, it needs money to thrive.

Anti-Catholics are ALWAYS bashing the supposed "vast wealth" of the Vatican...which is it? Filthy money-grubbing mongers, or destitute manipulating schemers? Baloney--the "country" the Vatican, makes money from tourism. The Vatican, the seat of Catholic Christianity, relies on the good-will tithing from her members who, just like at any Church, pass a plate and do fund raisers that support local, state, national, and international causes and administration.

If you think otherwise, it should probably be in the "conspiracy theories" forum.

Arcana XV · Mar 9, 2009

Felicity said:
Anti-Catholics are ALWAYS bashing the supposed "vast wealth" of the Vatican...which is it? Filthy money-grubbing mongers, or destitute manipulating schemers?

Umm... neither? At least, I've never implied any such thing. I just said that like any other country they need money to thrive. As for the "vast wealth" it's mostly real estate and historical pieces, really.

Baloney--the "country" the Vatican, makes money from tourism. The Vatican, the seat of Catholic Christianity, relies on the good-will tithing from her members who, just like at any Church, pass a plate and do fund raisers that support local, state, national, and international causes and administration.

If you think otherwise, it should probably be in the "conspiracy theories" forum.

Tourism, while an important one, is not their main source of income. Donations from their followers is, whether they're individual or collected by their government. Which brings me back to my point that without enough followers, the money will dry up. It's not a conspiracy theory, it's simple logic and common sense.

Don't get me wrong, as a Roman, I'm happy they bring in the tourists. They all have to eat and sleep somewhere and my city totally benefits. I don't want them to go away ever. :2wave:

ladilala · Mar 9, 2009

all morality aside, common sense applied,
only a true dick would be aganist this abortion.

(Dear God, Wuvvvv Ouuuu, but come on!?)

Felicity · Mar 9, 2009

Arcana XV said:
Umm... neither? At least, I've never implied any such thing. I just said that like any other country they need money to thrive. As for the "vast wealth" it's mostly real estate and historical pieces, really.

Then we agree--However, you said that the Vatican is "most concerned..." I agree that they are concerned about money issues, the sexual abuse scandal settlements and the world economy has an impact. But "most" concerned is not accurate. Ultimately money is nothing, and the Church is concerned about economic issues, but not more-so than it's primary function which is to save souls. I suppose one could speak of "the Vatican" as the country, and "the Church" as the religious center, but generally, they are used interchangeably.

Tourism, while an important one, is not their main source of income. Donations from their followers is, whether they're individual or collected by their government. Which brings me back to my point that without enough followers, the money will dry up. It's not a conspiracy theory, it's simple logic and common sense.

The way you referenced the governmental "church taxes" that are ion some parts of Europe seemed to imply--well, no, you actually said it like this: "But I am from Rome, I know that what the Vatican is most concerned about is money. Losing followers means losing money. Unlike in the US, in many other countries Catholics must pay their Church taxes or run the risk of being excommunicated."

You say the Vatican is "most" concerned with money and then support your point with the "church tax" thing, as if that is some sort of money-making endeavor rather than part of various countries' historical governmental land agreements. It was a gentle poke at the Church, but it was not a fair characterization.

Don't get me wrong, as a Roman, I'm happy they bring in the tourists. They all have to eat and sleep somewhere and my city totally benefits. I don't want them to go away ever. :2wave:

Ah...well....then, who is it that is "most concerned" with the Vatican's money?:2razz:

Felicity · Mar 9, 2009

THERE IS MORE TO THE STORY....

....
Although doctors at the hospital where the girl was initially admitted, Imip, reportedly said that her life was not in danger, her mother reportedly transferred her to another hospital, Cisam, that was willing to do the abortion, which is not penalized under Brazilian law because the girl was raped.

....
"various specialists from Imip, which is a major hospital, say that she didn't have a risk of dying. They could have waited longer."

Archbishop Announces Excommunication of Doctor and Family Members for Abortion on Nine-Year-Old Girl

Waiting longer could have given the babies a chance at life--even waiting 6 weeks would have dramatically improved their odds. The girl was already 15 or 16 weeks pregnant. If it became medically necessary, then it would be moral to defend the girls life against the threat of death, but at the point they aborted, that was not the case according to IMIP

With this information, the Bishop did the correct thing according to Catholic teaching. My guess is that the girl's mother wished to hide the fact that her husband is a scum-bag by aborting her grandchildren, and the pro-abortion pres/health minister/media et al are all using this tragedy to further their agenda. Sick--truly sick. That poor girl. With all these people USING her and publicising her personal tragedy, she will most definitely need the ministering of the Church in years to come.

Arcana XV · Mar 9, 2009

Felicity said:
THERE IS MORE TO THE STORY....

Waiting longer could have given the babies a chance at life--even waiting 6 weeks would have dramatically improved their odds. The girl was already 15 or 16 weeks pregnant. If it became medically necessary, then it would be moral to defend the girls life against the threat of death, but at the point they aborted, that was not the case according to IMIP

With this information, the Bishop did the correct thing according to Catholic teaching. My guess is that the girl's mother wished to hide the fact that her husband is a scum-bag by aborting her grandchildren, and the pro-abortion pres/health minister/media et al are all using this tragedy to further their agenda. Sick--truly sick. That poor girl. With all these people USING her and publicising her personal tragedy, she will most definitely need the ministering of the Church in years to come.

Felicity, you should know not to take info on an obviously biased site at face value.

I went looking for more info in the Brazilian press (being multi-lingual FTW!) and this is absolutely NOT true. In fact, the IMIP clinic had already started the process to perform the abortion, after examining the very small child (4'3 and 80lbs) and assessing that the danger to her life was too great if the pregnancy were to continue, when the biological father of the child asked that the abortion not take place. The hospital then decided not to go ahead with the abortion as long as both biological parents were not in agreement.

I don't know where your source got the information, but it's a load of BS. Both hospitals agreed that the child's life was in danger. Only one decided to go ahead with the procedure despite the biological father's protests and the other one didn't.

I don't have an English source, but if anyone speaks Protuguese, it's all here:

Igreja Catlica tenta impedir aborto de gmeos de menina de 9 anos abusada por padrasto em ... - O Globo

The article is dated March 4th and ends by saying that after IMIP decided to let the child leave the hospital with her family, it was unknown whether they got help at another hospital. As we all now know, they did. Thankfully. That poor little thing.

UtahBill · Mar 9, 2009

I find it tragic that churches can be so immoral when it comes to things like this, or church leaders, or even members.
Many who profess Christianity make a bad joke of religion in general..

jallman · Mar 9, 2009

Vader said:
I am not the one who is a puppet of his church.

No, you're just pathetically ignorant of history and the origins of your own religion.

"Puppet of his church". Not only does your ignorance know no bounds, but it is matched only by your penchant for being a droll little liar, too.

Scarecrow Akhbar · Mar 9, 2009

Laila said:
What the Mother and Daughter must be going through

What that poor innocent unborn baby had to go through.

Tell me, was the rapist convicted and executed, or just the one person who everyone was sure didn't have anything to do with the crime because he didn't exist when the crime was committed?

jallman · Mar 9, 2009

Scarecrow Akhbar said:
What that poor innocent unborn baby had to go through.

Tell me, was the rapist convicted and executed, or just the one person who everyone was sure didn't have anything to do with the crime because he didn't exist when the crime was committed?

That fetus "went through" nothing because it didn't even have a functioning central nervous system yet.

Kat-2 · Mar 9, 2009

Being anti-abortion, I still can't fault this raped 9 year old in getting an abortion. Can't say for sure what I would do in the same situation.

What a horrible position to be in.

What took place should be between the ones involved and God, not the church, and what the church did was absurd. IMO Sheesh.

Felicity · Mar 9, 2009

Arcana XV said:
Felicity, you should know not to take info on an obviously biased site at face value.

I went looking for more info in the Brazilian press (being multi-lingual FTW!) and this is absolutely NOT true. In fact, the IMIP clinic had already started the process to perform the abortion, after examining the very small child (4'3 and 80lbs) and assessing that the danger to her life was too great if the pregnancy were to continue, when the biological father of the child asked that the abortion not take place. The hospital then decided not to go ahead with the abortion as long as both biological parents were not in agreement.

I don't know where your source got the information, but it's a load of BS. Both hospitals agreed that the child's life was in danger. Only one decided to go ahead with the procedure despite the biological father's protests and the other one didn't.

I don't have an English source, but if anyone speaks Protuguese, it's all here:

Igreja Catlica tenta impedir aborto de gmeos de menina de 9 anos abusada por padrasto em ... - O Globo

The article is dated March 4th and ends by saying that after IMIP decided to let the child leave the hospital with her family, it was unknown whether they got help at another hospital. As we all now know, they did. Thankfully. That poor little thing.

Here is a Brazilian source translated (my bolding):
Pregnancy in 9-year-old girl in Brazil interrupted "Brazil Magazine: News & Reports live from Brazil

On Wednesday, the abortion performed on a nine-year-old girl in Brazil is showing the first results. The archbishop has the competent intervention as a "crime" and "violation of the laws of God" and the mother, the physician and other involved in the case of persons excommunicated. The child was after years of sexual abuse by the stepfather in the 4th Month with twins pregnant (more ...). According to the doctors passed at a continuation of the pregnancy because the body has not yet made the development of the girl massive health risks. In Brazil, in a health hazards to the mother or after a rape with impunity are aborted.

Dom José Cardoso Sobrinho, archbishop of Olinda and Recife, defended his decision by referring to the indications in the Holy Scriptures. "The law of God is above any secular law. And if any law of the people, I will say that if a man-made laws against the law of God, that secular law has no meaning. "Already yesterday, the head of the Catholic Church in the capital of Pernambuco state tried by all means to prevent abortion. Also the biological father of the girl he had to convince his position, so this is also against the required medical intervention debate (more ...).

Already last Saturday was the mother of her consent for an abortion is granted, the child was in a hospital in the metropolis of millions of medical and psychological care. However, it refused to the doctors, the surgery and said to be the ex date. The Catholic Church had previously announced that this case in court to decide. The abortion was "murder of two innocent lives."

The mother left it out on Tuesday evening, the hospital and turned to the University Hospital of Recife. There was then the surgery on Wednesday made (more ...). According to the medical director of the State University of Pernambuco's Institute, Sérgio Cabral, the interference was legally permissible. Both the Act explicitly declared exceptions that a termination of pregnancy permit could be applied. First, it was a pregnancy resulting from sexual violence traded. And also are the organs of the child for a pregnancy is not yet mature, so the 1.33m high and 36kg slight girl with a continuation of the pregnancy incalculable health risks would have been.

"As a physician, I can a nine year old girl does not leave such an agony, which perhaps in the end even with his life to pay" said the now from the Catholic Church failed Cabral literally. The operation itself was carried out by a drug to the uterus tense, so that the fetus will be expelled. After the uterus has been cleaned to prevent possible infections. The child is going well in the circumstances, it would probably soon dismissed. It will of course continue medical and psychological care.

The response of the Archbishop had not been long in coming. All persons involved in the abortion with the exception of the child were with immediate effect, excommunicated. It is a crime and an unacceptable act against the doctrine of the church had been committed. This could not be tolerated.

The stepfather of the child since the age of six regularly sexually abused and has also admitted, even the physically disabled sister, repeatedly raped the girl who is more in custody. At a sentencing him threaten up to 15 years imprisonment in a closed executive.

That backs up the Lifesitenews article.

Because the girl was raped, it was a "legal" abortion--however, legal is irrelevant to the moral stance of the Catholic Church. My source states that the 1st hospital indicated she was not in immediate danger--the version you are giving doesn't seem to be reported in my translated source and I can't read Portuguese! Can you find a translated source?

Kat-2 · Mar 9, 2009

jallman said:
That fetus "went through" nothing because it didn't even have a functioning central nervous system yet.

It only went through death. :roll:

jallman · Mar 9, 2009

Kat-2 said:
It only went through death. :roll:

No, the mother went through a medical procedure to terminate a medical condition. The fetus "went through" nothing because it has no functioning CNS at 15 weeks. :roll::roll::roll:

Kat-2 · Mar 9, 2009

jallman said:
No, the mother went through a medical procedure to terminate a medical condition. The fetus "went through" nothing because it has no functioning CNS at 15 weeks. :roll::roll::roll:

Right. I know..it was a ''pre-people''. Heard it all.

Raped 9-Year-Old Has Abortion

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