-
This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!
Question for Pro Lifers[W:262:*568*:***862***
- Thread starter voyager1
- Start date
joG
DP Veteran
- Joined
- Jul 27, 2013
- Messages
- 43,839
- Reaction score
- 9,656
- Gender
- Undisclosed
- Political Leaning
- Independent
Re: Question for Pro Lifers
Usually the pair is not mentioned together. That is probably, because the people that like abortion hate capital punishment.
Usually the pair is not mentioned together. That is probably, because the people that like abortion hate capital punishment.
- Joined
- Dec 3, 2009
- Messages
- 52,046
- Reaction score
- 34,013
- Location
- The Golden State
- Gender
- Male
- Political Leaning
- Independent
Re: Question for Pro Lifers
The problem with putting those two issues together is that they come from opposite philosophies.
Pro life: Let's give the government the power to decide who may and may not have an abortion.
Death penalty: Let's give the government the power to decide who may be put to death.
The correct side, the side of freedom, is that the woman decides whether to carry a fetus to term, and the government doesn't get to take a life.
So, no, I wouldn't support such an amendment.
The problem with putting those two issues together is that they come from opposite philosophies.
Pro life: Let's give the government the power to decide who may and may not have an abortion.
Death penalty: Let's give the government the power to decide who may be put to death.
The correct side, the side of freedom, is that the woman decides whether to carry a fetus to term, and the government doesn't get to take a life.
So, no, I wouldn't support such an amendment.
TeleKat
Banned
- Joined
- Mar 12, 2014
- Messages
- 5,849
- Reaction score
- 3,776
- Location
- Ask the NSA
- Gender
- Female
- Political Leaning
- Slightly Liberal
- Joined
- Sep 18, 2011
- Messages
- 17,471
- Reaction score
- 4,063
- Gender
- Male
- Political Leaning
- Libertarian - Right
Re: Question for Pro Lifers
I oppose the death penalty and a Constitutional Amendment would be absolutely required to ban it nationwide. So sure, good deal.
You've presented them in the most similar way possible, though, as an abortion IS putting someone to death.
I oppose the death penalty and a Constitutional Amendment would be absolutely required to ban it nationwide. So sure, good deal.
You've presented them in the most similar way possible, though, as an abortion IS putting someone to death.
- Joined
- Apr 25, 2011
- Messages
- 25,803
- Reaction score
- 20,579
- Location
- Austin, Texas
- Gender
- Male
- Political Leaning
- Undisclosed
Re: Question for Pro Lifers
Abortion bans don't prevent abortions. They just prevent legal abortions.
The death penalty is society's way of taking revenge. Is there any evidence that revenge really works? And some see the death penalty as a "reckoning". Once a person is executed, the wreckage of the past still remains. And let's not forget that individuals across our nation impose the death penalty on others every few second of the day...outside the law. Not even the most stringent laws against murder prevents murder. To me personally, the death penalty isn't a penalty, really. It's a way out of a bad situation.
I think the place to start is creating a constitutional amendment to end engaging in war on foreign soil. We've spent, what, a trillion and a half or so in Iraq and Afghanistan? With that amount of money spent on defense systems here in the US...we could stop the second coming of Christ from happening.
It took about 20 people to turn our country and the world, really...upside down financially, physically, emotionally, and mentally. The world has never been the same world since 9-11. Those 20 people took about 3000 lives here...and over the ensuing years, thousands of more American lives have been lost and ten's of thousand who have sustained serious to life-long injuries. We'll be paying for their care for decades to come.
And now, we have several nations of people who are eager for us to come to their land so that they can show their allegiance to their god by self-sacrifice, which by the way is a very fast ticket to heaven and a penthouse room at god's hotel, with all of the amenities that god can afford. In other words, a good death has it's special reward to these folks. That good death involves your death and their death simultaneously.
We've been living on "war economy" so long that our government is almost forced to constantly justify the need for...or create...unnecessary wars just to keep our economy afloat.
We live in a very dangerous world. Abortion and the death penalty are minor in comparison to all of the other ways humanity has to self-destruct.
Abortion bans don't prevent abortions. They just prevent legal abortions.
The death penalty is society's way of taking revenge. Is there any evidence that revenge really works? And some see the death penalty as a "reckoning". Once a person is executed, the wreckage of the past still remains. And let's not forget that individuals across our nation impose the death penalty on others every few second of the day...outside the law. Not even the most stringent laws against murder prevents murder. To me personally, the death penalty isn't a penalty, really. It's a way out of a bad situation.
I think the place to start is creating a constitutional amendment to end engaging in war on foreign soil. We've spent, what, a trillion and a half or so in Iraq and Afghanistan? With that amount of money spent on defense systems here in the US...we could stop the second coming of Christ from happening.
It took about 20 people to turn our country and the world, really...upside down financially, physically, emotionally, and mentally. The world has never been the same world since 9-11. Those 20 people took about 3000 lives here...and over the ensuing years, thousands of more American lives have been lost and ten's of thousand who have sustained serious to life-long injuries. We'll be paying for their care for decades to come.
And now, we have several nations of people who are eager for us to come to their land so that they can show their allegiance to their god by self-sacrifice, which by the way is a very fast ticket to heaven and a penthouse room at god's hotel, with all of the amenities that god can afford. In other words, a good death has it's special reward to these folks. That good death involves your death and their death simultaneously.
We've been living on "war economy" so long that our government is almost forced to constantly justify the need for...or create...unnecessary wars just to keep our economy afloat.
We live in a very dangerous world. Abortion and the death penalty are minor in comparison to all of the other ways humanity has to self-destruct.
- Joined
- Sep 18, 2011
- Messages
- 17,471
- Reaction score
- 4,063
- Gender
- Male
- Political Leaning
- Libertarian - Right
Re: Question for Pro Lifers
Contract killing will always exist as long as people have money and want someone dead. So what?
Human trafficking also still exists. I'm still glad we have the 13th Amendment, even if it isn't a magical shield that prevents anyone from being abducted and sold.
Contract killing will always exist as long as people have money and want someone dead. So what?
Human trafficking also still exists. I'm still glad we have the 13th Amendment, even if it isn't a magical shield that prevents anyone from being abducted and sold.
- Joined
- Apr 25, 2011
- Messages
- 25,803
- Reaction score
- 20,579
- Location
- Austin, Texas
- Gender
- Male
- Political Leaning
- Undisclosed
Re: Question for Pro Lifers
No your not. The 13th Amendment keeps women free from slavery. You know, "involuntary servitude" as a result of forcing them to give birth to an unwanted pregnancy....or to raise a child for 18 years - for whom they are forced to serve - because you want them to.
Forcing to one person serve another or others, Jay...is "involuntary servitude".
No your not. The 13th Amendment keeps women free from slavery. You know, "involuntary servitude" as a result of forcing them to give birth to an unwanted pregnancy....or to raise a child for 18 years - for whom they are forced to serve - because you want them to.
Forcing to one person serve another or others, Jay...is "involuntary servitude".
- Joined
- Sep 18, 2011
- Messages
- 17,471
- Reaction score
- 4,063
- Gender
- Male
- Political Leaning
- Libertarian - Right
Re: Question for Pro Lifers
Yes, I am.
Men and women both, actually.
Parenthood is not slavery no matter how many times you parrot this peculiar retardation.
Yes, I am.
Men and women both, actually.
Parenthood is not slavery no matter how many times you parrot this peculiar retardation.
- Joined
- Dec 3, 2009
- Messages
- 52,046
- Reaction score
- 34,013
- Location
- The Golden State
- Gender
- Male
- Political Leaning
- Independent
Re: Question for Pro Lifers
Both issues are of government power. Do we give the government the power of life and death? I say, no, we do not. It already has too much power and is a detriment to freedom.
Both issues are of government power. Do we give the government the power of life and death? I say, no, we do not. It already has too much power and is a detriment to freedom.
- Joined
- Dec 3, 2009
- Messages
- 52,046
- Reaction score
- 34,013
- Location
- The Golden State
- Gender
- Male
- Political Leaning
- Independent
Re: Question for Pro Lifers
I know. We could amend the Constitution to take the power to declare war out of the hands of the president and give it to the Congre....what? Really? The Congress already had the power to declare war?
Why in Hell did we ever allow them to abrogate that responsibility?
I know. We could amend the Constitution to take the power to declare war out of the hands of the president and give it to the Congre....what? Really? The Congress already had the power to declare war?
Why in Hell did we ever allow them to abrogate that responsibility?
- Joined
- Apr 25, 2011
- Messages
- 25,803
- Reaction score
- 20,579
- Location
- Austin, Texas
- Gender
- Male
- Political Leaning
- Undisclosed
Re: Question for Pro Lifers
The government is not our friend. Congress, the president...the S.C. All of 'em... they obviously aren't respecters of those who consent to their existing.
We live in a dangerous world, no doubt it. But to avoid creating our defense here...isn't very wise.
Every terrorist around the world can get across our borders....if they really had a hankering to.
The government is not our friend. Congress, the president...the S.C. All of 'em... they obviously aren't respecters of those who consent to their existing.
We live in a dangerous world, no doubt it. But to avoid creating our defense here...isn't very wise.
Every terrorist around the world can get across our borders....if they really had a hankering to.
- Joined
- Sep 18, 2011
- Messages
- 17,471
- Reaction score
- 4,063
- Gender
- Male
- Political Leaning
- Libertarian - Right
Re: Question for Pro Lifers
By that standard you would have to object to any law banning any killing. Which pretty much means any law, as those are the most bedrock laws of human civilization.
Anarchy only serves liberty as long as you are mightier than anyone who would hurt you, yet you do not abuse this might against others. Laws against killing protect our liberty.
By that standard you would have to object to any law banning any killing. Which pretty much means any law, as those are the most bedrock laws of human civilization.
Anarchy only serves liberty as long as you are mightier than anyone who would hurt you, yet you do not abuse this might against others. Laws against killing protect our liberty.
- Joined
- Apr 25, 2011
- Messages
- 25,803
- Reaction score
- 20,579
- Location
- Austin, Texas
- Gender
- Male
- Political Leaning
- Undisclosed
Re: Question for Pro Lifers
That's not true. Not realistic. Just like you can't ban abortion...you can't ban individuals from killing others.
On the other hand...Ditto is clear that we don't need to government to be a killing agent at its own will. There's some things that government shouldn't intervene in. Too much power to control life and death isn't healthy for governments to have access to.
That's not true. Not realistic. Just like you can't ban abortion...you can't ban individuals from killing others.
On the other hand...Ditto is clear that we don't need to government to be a killing agent at its own will. There's some things that government shouldn't intervene in. Too much power to control life and death isn't healthy for governments to have access to.
- Joined
- Sep 18, 2011
- Messages
- 17,471
- Reaction score
- 4,063
- Gender
- Male
- Political Leaning
- Libertarian - Right
Re: Question for Pro Lifers
So you finally admit that you're an anarchist opposed to all law, then?
You "can't" ban anyone from killing others? Yes you can. It's called civilization, it's called law, it's called protecting human rights, which is why we humans create governments in the first place.
So you finally admit that you're an anarchist opposed to all law, then?
You "can't" ban anyone from killing others? Yes you can. It's called civilization, it's called law, it's called protecting human rights, which is why we humans create governments in the first place.
- Joined
- Apr 25, 2011
- Messages
- 25,803
- Reaction score
- 20,579
- Location
- Austin, Texas
- Gender
- Male
- Political Leaning
- Undisclosed
Re: Question for Pro Lifers
Prove to me that any law against killing another has been effective in prevent such to happen...
Jay, the "human rights" nonsense is just that...nonsense. Those aren't anymore enforceable than laws against killing.
A person who sets out to kill...will. The same for abortion.
Laws are to remind honest folks why they should remain honest. Those who are of criminal mind...don't care about laws.
Prove to me that any law against killing another has been effective in prevent such to happen...
Jay, the "human rights" nonsense is just that...nonsense. Those aren't anymore enforceable than laws against killing.
A person who sets out to kill...will. The same for abortion.
Laws are to remind honest folks why they should remain honest. Those who are of criminal mind...don't care about laws.
- Joined
- Sep 18, 2011
- Messages
- 17,471
- Reaction score
- 4,063
- Gender
- Male
- Political Leaning
- Libertarian - Right
Re: Question for Pro Lifers
Right, so you do oppose all law. Laws are pointless because they don't magically stop aggressive violence... that's the opinion you are putting forth.
Great, so we can put that in context when you say you're against laws banning killing the unborn, you are not discriminating, as you want no laws against killing someone else killing you either. That's what you're saying right now.
Only, I doubt that can be believed - you have made earlier statements that directly contradict this, so why don't you try making up your damn mind before trying to argue with others to agree with you... when you don't agree with you.
Right, so you do oppose all law. Laws are pointless because they don't magically stop aggressive violence... that's the opinion you are putting forth.
Great, so we can put that in context when you say you're against laws banning killing the unborn, you are not discriminating, as you want no laws against killing someone else killing you either. That's what you're saying right now.
Only, I doubt that can be believed - you have made earlier statements that directly contradict this, so why don't you try making up your damn mind before trying to argue with others to agree with you... when you don't agree with you.
- Joined
- Dec 3, 2009
- Messages
- 52,046
- Reaction score
- 34,013
- Location
- The Golden State
- Gender
- Male
- Political Leaning
- Independent
Re: Question for Pro Lifers
There we have the round and round argument that always comes from any discussion of abortion.
It's murder! No, it's not! Yes, it is! Life begins at conception! No, it doesn't! Yes, it does!
If you agree that abortion is tantamount to killing a human being, then you have a point. Not everyone believes that. The choice to act on a belief should lie with the individual, and not the government.
There we have the round and round argument that always comes from any discussion of abortion.
It's murder! No, it's not! Yes, it is! Life begins at conception! No, it doesn't! Yes, it does!
If you agree that abortion is tantamount to killing a human being, then you have a point. Not everyone believes that. The choice to act on a belief should lie with the individual, and not the government.
- Joined
- Sep 18, 2011
- Messages
- 17,471
- Reaction score
- 4,063
- Gender
- Male
- Political Leaning
- Libertarian - Right
Re: Question for Pro Lifers
Doesn't work. Some individuals might "believe" it's okay to kill whomever looks at them.
Doesn't work. Some individuals might "believe" it's okay to kill whomever looks at them.
- Joined
- May 24, 2007
- Messages
- 5,967
- Reaction score
- 1,531
- Location
- Somewhere in Dixie
- Gender
- Male
- Political Leaning
- Libertarian
- Joined
- Apr 25, 2011
- Messages
- 25,803
- Reaction score
- 20,579
- Location
- Austin, Texas
- Gender
- Male
- Political Leaning
- Undisclosed
Re: Question for Pro Lifers
SOME INDIVIDUAL....not only might, but will kill whomever looks at them. The law can't normally stop those folks.
SOME INDIVIDUAL....not only might, but will kill whomever looks at them. The law can't normally stop those folks.
- Joined
- Apr 25, 2011
- Messages
- 25,803
- Reaction score
- 20,579
- Location
- Austin, Texas
- Gender
- Male
- Political Leaning
- Undisclosed
Re: Question for Pro Lifers
Ah, so you too have an opinion about what constitutes murder...and justice. Interesting. Welcome to the world of opinions.
Ah, so you too have an opinion about what constitutes murder...and justice. Interesting. Welcome to the world of opinions.
- Joined
- Dec 3, 2009
- Messages
- 52,046
- Reaction score
- 34,013
- Location
- The Golden State
- Gender
- Male
- Political Leaning
- Independent
Re: Question for Pro Lifers
Some individuals believe that a fertilized egg is a human being. Others do not. Those who do would like to try to impose that belief on the rest of humanity.
Some individuals believe that a fertilized egg is a human being. Others do not. Those who do would like to try to impose that belief on the rest of humanity.
- Joined
- Sep 18, 2011
- Messages
- 17,471
- Reaction score
- 4,063
- Gender
- Male
- Political Leaning
- Libertarian - Right
Re: Question for Pro Lifers
Can't always stop doesn't mean can't investigate afterwards, arrest them, and place where no one else can be hurt.
Can't always stop doesn't mean can't investigate afterwards, arrest them, and place where no one else can be hurt.