vergiss said:Wait, so a two-and-a-half year old baby having a tantrum is undisciplined? Wtf?
Mr. D said:Boy talk about an example of the "Slippery Slope" fallacy of logic! I'm a moderate liberal but this kind of overboard silly liberalism is what gives liberals a bad name!
First, to recognize two year old children are too young to understand the needs of others and are therefore naturally and biologically selfish in trying to meet their own needs is not to believe in original sin or that children are born evil! Geez, how silly! What a stretch!
Secondly, no one suggested beating children, but rather disciplining them rather than letting the become spoiled, angry, unhappy brats that are taught the world revolves around them. As far as mild corporal punishment done "not out of anger or emotion" but out of love and concern, the jury is still out on that! I maintain that there is a difference in a mild smack on the rump for a child who insists on try to run into traffic and child abuse! What causes damage to children is not a smack on the hand or rump, but being hit in anger! You underestimate children when you assume they don't know the difference! Discipline should be age appropriate! Very mild corporal punishment (never done in anger) maybe appropriate for small children where it is inappropriate for older children who can be reasoned with. Many parents abuse their children without smacking them by socially acceptable methods like guilt trips involving religion and pyschological pressure!
I'm so lucky my parents had the good sense and love to smack me on the seat when I was too young to understand the pyscho-edu-babble that is letting children misbehave and creating the culture we have today!
I still maintain the worse child abuse is not disciplining children because they are so precious! Look at the children you see everyday in stores and restuarants that don't care about anything but their own spoiled, selfish needs and tell me we aren't missing something! Some of those children are unmarried, 28 years old with children of their own! The schools are expected to bring some discipline into their lives! I wish I had a dollar for every child I had to tell not to be rude to their parent in front of me, their teacher! Then the modern parent would say, "Oh! It's all right!" and I'd have to answer back, "No, I'm sorry but it's not all right here at school to behave that way to parents!"
Even a mother bear who will die to protect her cubs has the instinct to nip them on the rump when they choose to run towards danger. We need to hold on to some common sense! :2wave:
tecoyah said:I'm on my third walk through the 2 1/2 yr old stint....and guess what....they cry. My 4 and 6 yrs olds are very well behaved, and homeschooled....but guess what....they cried at 2 1/2 as well. We have NEVER hit our kids....as it is not something we believe in, but our children are well disciplined to the point where they will communicate issues with mom and dad. Yes....they still cry...dont we all. But they talk and think as well.
Good for you, hope you get a medal for being lucky with your kids. Your little sample is not enough to infer anything for research purposes. The homeschool part is a concern, tho. Hope you have what it takes to do it right, as most do not. You occasionally read about a home schooled child entering college at 14 smarter than most 24 year olds, but what is most likely to happen is that they grow up so isolated from the real world that they think inside a bubble their entire lives, believing things like all hitting is wrong and any punishment of a physical nature will damage their little minds forever.tecoyah said:I'm on my third walk through the 2 1/2 yr old stint....and guess what....they cry. My 4 and 6 yrs olds are very well behaved, and homeschooled....but guess what....they cried at 2 1/2 as well. We have NEVER hit our kids....as it is not something we believe in, but our children are well disciplined to the point where they will communicate issues with mom and dad. Yes....they still cry...dont we all. But they talk and think as well.
AlbqOwl said:Parents who do not set and enforce boundaries for their children are doing their children no good service nor are they instilling self confidence in their children. I believe most children not only want boundaries but are terrified when there are none. A swat or two on the rear can be cathartic and clear the air for a young child--he knows he's behaved abysmally and once he has received an appropriate punishment he has a brand new do over. Schools should not be the ones to teach discipline to children, but they definitely should enforce it with the full support of the parent. When I was a child it would be unheard of for a parent to take the child's side against a teacher unless it was one really bad teacher. And to throw a temper fit in public once the kid was big enough to throw a fit on purpose would be grounds for losing a lot of privileges even after the spanking. It just wasn't done. And you know what? You didn't have half the kids on Ritalin or some other behavior modifying drugs back then either, and the classroom wasn't pandemonium and people took their kids to restaurants without disrupting everybody's meal.
I do not in any way support harming children in any way, physically, mentally, or spiritually. But I disagree that there is no such thing as a 'good fear'. To fear consequences for bad actions is a good thing no matter what age you are.
AlbqOwl said:Parents who do not set and enforce boundaries for their children are doing their children no good service nor are they instilling self confidence in their children. I believe most children not only want boundaries but are terrified when there are none. A swat or two on the rear can be cathartic and clear the air for a young child--he knows he's behaved abysmally and once he has received an appropriate punishment he has a brand new do over. . . . . . And you know what? You didn't have half the kids on Ritalin or some other behavior modifying drugs back then either, and the classroom wasn't pandemonium and people took their kids to restaurants without disrupting everybody's meal.
I do not in any way support harming children in any way, physically, mentally, or spiritually. But I disagree that there is no such thing as a 'good fear'. To fear consequences for bad actions is a good thing no matter what age you are.
AlbqOwl said:Parents who do not set and enforce boundaries for their children are doing their children no good service nor are they instilling self confidence in their children. I believe most children not only want boundaries but are terrified when there are none. A swat or two on the rear can be cathartic and clear the air for a young child--he knows he's behaved abysmally and once he has received an appropriate punishment he has a brand new do over. Schools should not be the ones to teach discipline to children, but they definitely should enforce it with the full support of the parent. When I was a child it would be unheard of for a parent to take the child's side against a teacher unless it was one really bad teacher. And to throw a temper fit in public once the kid was big enough to throw a fit on purpose would be grounds for losing a lot of privileges even after the spanking. It just wasn't done. And you know what? You didn't have half the kids on Ritalin or some other behavior modifying drugs back then either, and the classroom wasn't pandemonium and people took their kids to restaurants without disrupting everybody's meal.
I do not in any way support harming children in any way, physically, mentally, or spiritually. But I disagree that there is no such thing as a 'good fear'. To fear consequences for bad actions is a good thing no matter what age you are.
paulmarkj I was never punished physically as a child said:I doubt that would be a meaningful study. There are far more ill treated persons outside of prison than inside, they just didn't let the abuse get to them. And we are not talking abuse here, or beating, but at the worst, a spanking. Lots of people think they are all one and the same. They are not. My mother hit a lot, but she was too small to really hurt me plhysically, she was very good at emotional abuse, tho. But my dad used a heavy leather strap and he hit while he was angry. I was the favorite target of both of them. I have committed no crimes worthy of prison, and am relatively well adjusted husband, father, and grandfather. I used to hate my parents, but got to the point of just having pity for them and their misquided ways. My younger brother, however, was spoiled, never punished (no matter what) , and became a worthless person, altho he also never went to prison. Got hauled to jail a few times, tho, just got released after paying his fines.
He was mom's last baby and she ruined him with her love far more than she ruined me with her hate. Long run, it is up to us to get over it and move on.
UtahBill said:I doubt that would be a meaningful study. There are far more ill treated persons outside of prison than inside, they just didn't let the abuse get to them. And we are not talking abuse here, or beating, but at the worst, a spanking. Lots of people think they are all one and the same. They are not. My mother hit a lot, but she was too small to really hurt me plhysically, she was very good at emotional abuse, tho. But my dad used a heavy leather strap and he hit while he was angry. I was the favorite target of both of them. I have committed no crimes worthy of prison, and am relatively well adjusted husband, father, and grandfather. I used to hate my parents, but got to the point of just having pity for them and their misquided ways. My younger brother, however, was spoiled, never punished (no matter what) , and became a worthless person, altho he also never went to prison. Got hauled to jail a few times, tho, just got released after paying his fines.
He was mom's last baby and she ruined him with her love far more than she ruined me with her hate. Long run, it is up to us to get over it and move on.
A club where we get sympathy from each other, perhaps? No thanks, I prefer to look ahead, not back.Mr. D said:AlbqOWL & Utah Bill,
Let's start a club! Lot's of us didn't come from perfect homes! You just do your best to get over it and move on!
After 31 years of teaching I'm convinced there are no easy, simple answers and none of us really understand clearly why one one person is able to master some self discipline and decison making while another cannot, often even within the same family. I believe many criminals and social misfits lack something they have no control over. It's not always an active decision to be bad or have no control. I think there are many more developmentally disabled people who just can make it in a complex society than we admit. It's easier to call tehm criminals. I have one in my family. It's not a matter of I.Q. always, but inability to sequence events and see the world as others do. It some people decision making and self control does not seem pass childhood levels. A hundred years ago on a family farm he would have done fine.
It's a sin that our country does not provide programs for those who cannot cope in society where they can do supervised work to earn meals, a place to live, medical care and pocket change. Durding the depdression sthe WPA id that! Sure it would cost money, but having them on the street and in prisons costs allot more and it's inhumane! We claim to be a compassionate country, but talk we seem to only provide punishment to those who can't cope with life!
It has always been my opinion that the military should make room for mildly disabled persons. If they can function even marginally in civilian life, why not allow them to serve? So he can't run a mile while carrying a rifle and backpack, so what? Not everyone fights!Mr. D said:UtahBill,
Tell me about it! I've got a son in prison! He's has normal intelligence but was born developmentally disabled with the maturity of a 10 year old at 27.
You are absolutely correct, but there still should be help for those who would take it. I believe my son would love have a place to go that would give him a supervised life of service in a community. He tried to make it in the military, but was discharged after 3 months for asthma. If that hadn't happened I think he would have made it in the military. That final defeat broke his spirit and he gave up on himself! Now his options are limited due to going to prison. It's the greatest pain in my life for 27 years! I suspect only death will get me relief from it! If there is a God, I have some problems with him! :roll:
UtahBill said:It has always been my opinion that the military should make room for mildly disabled persons. If they can function even marginally in civilian life, why not allow them to serve? So he can't run a mile while carrying a rifle and backpack, so what? Not everyone fights!
There are many jobs in the military that can be performed without being perfect physical and mental specimens. I met one mildly retarded person while in the navy who had no family to go home to after 20 years of service, and they were going to force him out, but a doctor said he had to stay in until his "nervous condition" was cured. He wasn't the smartest guy around, but he ran the ships laundry and store as well as anybody. I don't know how long he and the doctor got away with it, but surely it helped him by delaying the seperation process.
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