You are totally screwing with what I said. DENIAL of fertility, DIMINISHING the gift of fertility, CASTERATING fertility, PERCEIVING it as a curse or an illness is what is ANTI-WOMAN. Women (in general--and even those who are infertile) are the bearers of humanity by virtue of the female ability to carry the next generation--their unique femininity. It is an incredible loss to be infertile--but it does not make a woman any less a woman. DENYING that fertility is a gift of womanhood is an attempt to make a woman less. Many women do it to themselves through purposefully cutting themselves off from that empowering gift. BTW--fertility is not the only gift of womanhood that is devalued and diminished in favor of "masculine superiority" Ha! "superiority"--that is the message of the contracepting/aborting mentality--women should be more like men. That is crap--women should glorify their femininity and let men be men and women be women! Men have their own unique gifts and more power to them--women's gifts should be valued equally (though they are different) rather than us women trying to be more like men. We ARE different--GLORY in the difference. Our expression of fertility is part of that. Your fertility problem is a loss, but not something that makes you less. A person missing a leg is still a whole person. It is the degradation of womanly fertility and her other gifts that sets the REALITY of what womanhood is "back."ngdawg said:So, am I to assume that those without this 'gift' are less? Menopause makes us unvaluable? Those that choose never to have kids
Yea, I agree, fertility IS a gift, one I was not given. That doesn't make me any less a woman and it's not a bonus to be handed out to those deemed worthy of it.
We're not special merely because of a uterus. Thanks for setting back womanhood about 120 years.
Unless she gets pregnant by rape--no one is forced into pregnancy.jallman said:Thats all true for the woman who WANTS to be a mother. When a woman doesn't want to be a mother, that gift of reproduction is turned into a burden she is saddled
Niiiiiiiiiice....see what the contracepting/abortive mentality turns children into? Thanks for demonstrating so clearly how human life can be reduced to wretched burdens simply by how you CHOOSE to view it. I, on the other hand, choose to see life (my life and the lives of others) as opportunity to better myself and make a difference in the word.with by a bunch of lying, slaving, guilt merchants who feel the need to control her.
Felicity said:Unless she gets pregnant by rape--no one is forced into pregnancy.
Niiiiiiiiiice....see what the contracepting/abortive mentality turns children into? Thanks for demonstrating so clearly how human life can be reduced to wretched burdens simply by how you CHOOSE to view it. I, on the other hand, choose to see life (my life and the lives of others) as opportunity to better myself and make a difference in the word.
It is consent to the "possibility."jallman said:Consent to sex is not consent to pregnancy. I don't care how you try to guilt trip the issue.
And where is there any science in your "bunch of lying, slaving, guilt merchants who feel the need to control?"Yes yes because science is soooo subjective and open to opinion :roll:
Feeling guilty, jallman?I am not going to be guilted .
Felicity said:It is consent to the "possibility."
And where is there any science in your "bunch of lying, slaving, guilt merchants who feel the need to control?"
DENYING that fertility is a gift of womanhood is an attempt to make a woman less. Many women do it to themselves through purposefully cutting themselves off from that empowering gift.
How is my take on this^^ screwing with what you said? I have friends that, because they do not want any kids, had tubals. They're no less special than anyone else, yet you imply they are. Nor are those who take birth control to delay or prevent having kids, yet you say they are.The fact of women's fertility is a BONUS for our gender--an HONOR--a thing to be REVERED rather than CASTRATED as so many do with drugs and surgery. When you diminish the unique ability women have, you strip that "specialness" from them
jallman said:Consent to sex is not consent to pregnancy. I don't care how you try to guilt trip the issue.
talloulou said:That's why I think as long as men are able to be held financially beholden to their children till they are 18 we can at least expect mother's to be physically beholden till birth. As long as the mother is healthy pregnancy for 9 months is hardly the huge deal it's made out to be and certainly if men and women can be forced into 18 years of financial support then women can be expected to cough up 9 months of bodily resources.
talloulou said:If ever there are hospitals filled to the brim with healthy babies that nobody wants I might consider thinking differently but that currently is not the case.
talloulou said:I wouldn't support my son being a dead beat dad and I'm certainly not gonna lend any support to a daughter who rants and raves about some mythical constitutional right to kill a human in her uterus.
Yes they are. In what state can men "opt out" of paying child support just because they, "don't wanna?":roll:Purple said:But men are not irrevocably held to support, why should women be?
Maybe not but the foster care system is full of them.
Really? Which lines of the consitution exactly can be reasonably interpreted as a right to abortion?:roll:Mythical? Last I checked it was law.
talloulou said:Yes they are. In what state can men "opt out" of paying child support just because they, "don't wanna?":roll:
talloulou said:No the foster care system is full of older children the majority of whom were taken from their parents due to neglect or crime.
talloulou said:Really? Which lines of the consitution exactly can be reasonably interpreted as a right to abortion?:roll:
Purple said:Nice eyeroll by the way, always a mature response!
http://www.resource4familylaw.com/topics/gettingchildsupport.html
The Deadbeat Dad program refers to parents who continually dodge their financial obligations. According the Federal Office of Child Support, $96 million worth of child support went unpaid in 2003, 68% of which was arrears, or debt that accumulates when payments are missed.
Visit any foster care website for any state and read the stories.And your proof to back up this statement is where?
I said "mythical constitutional right" and you seemed to negate that.Ah once again the eyeroll, how cute you are!
I only said it was a law, I never said it was stated in the constitution right.
Though it should be.
Hypothetically...why does it need to be "archaic and unacceptable?" Had history progressed differently--had the role of women been appropriately valued in our society--had human beings and life been deemed precious, unique, irrepeatable and irreplacable--as every individual OUGHT to be viewed, do you think women's fertility would be "diminished" as I have outlined? Do you think if life was valued as it ought--ALL life--women would be at war with their fertility?ngdawg said:You are still diminishing those women who choose not to have children and that's archaic and unacceptable.
I have no problem with fertility treatments that do not produce life that goes to waste by sitting in frozen vats or are "selectively terminated" or are "used" as if life was just a means to an end.You have claimed that because I and others sought out medical support for infertility, we've been messing with 'natural' progression, so which is it? Are we less because we messed with the inability to use this so-called 'gift' or ungifted because it doesn't work?
It's an organ that men don't have. It is unique to woman.Our uterus is not a think tank and it's not what holds our personalities, our goals or our spirit. It's an organ.
Just as I claim in my pro-life argument that the "functionality" of the human person is irrelevant, I claim the "functionality" of the uterus et al is irrelevant. It is the bigger philosophical issue that is relevant.Sometimes one that does not work, needs to be removed or isn't needed. And the 'gift' you speak of is worthless if either it is not wanted or there's no man to complete its primary function.
Okay--call it a power--an ability--a defining element....Besides, I don't believe any biological entity is a 'gift' as that implies religious connotations, which I do not subscribe to.
Nor would I. You are woman (hear us roar!:mrgreen: )And, had the treatments I sought not worked, I certainly would not consider myself any less 'feminine' or 'ungifted'.
eeewww. I used to work in a nursing home....makes me think of old ladies with prolapsed uteruses....Not pretty.:shock:So....when going out all dressed up, do you apply makeup to your uterus or is it pretty enough to show off 'al natural'?:mrgreen:
talloulou said:Yeah they are commiting a "crime" by not paying. In many states their paychecks will automatically be pulled in order to take money for the back support. It's not something they get to do legally with the support of the law and the land unlike abortion.
talloulou said:Visit any foster care website for any state and read the stories.
talloulou said:I said "mythical constitutional right" and you seemed to negate that.
Because pregnancy only applies to women. Men don't get pregnant. They don't bleed every month as well. Men and women can not be held equally accountable for nourishing a fetus. But there are a variety of laws that affect men and women differently. Women don't have to register for the draft when they turn 18.Purple said:Yes it is a crime for a man not to support his child but nowhere but where is the law that says he has to support a fetus? Why should women be held to a different law?
Men aren't required to provide support during pregancy. Why should a woman?
Are you suggesting these children would prefer to have never been born? Keeping abortion legal doesn't ensure that only good parents have kids.Maybe because the mommies and daddies that had them weren't ready to have children. Do you think that those kids feel like "gifts" as they are shuffled around from home to home until they are 18 and then thrown out of the system to make due on their own? With no support system, no family?
Aren't all laws based on the consitition? Isn't that the point that the constitution is the basis of the laws of our land?
talloulou said:Because pregnancy only applies to women. Men don't get pregnant. They don't bleed every month as well. Men and women can not be held equally accountable for nourishing a fetus. But there are a variety of laws that affect men and women differently. Women don't have to register for the draft when they turn 18.
talloulou said:Are you suggesting these children would prefer to have never been born? Keeping abortion legal doesn't ensure that only good parents have kids.
talloulou said:Roe vs. Wade was a radical interpretation of the US constitution and a prime example of legislating from the bench.
Purple said:That's just your opinion not fact. I happen to be of the opinion that it is a brilliant piece of legislation.
talloulou said:That's funny on a variety of levels! :rofl
talloulou said:So if he refused to be a father to a child he created you wouldn't be disappointed? If he told you, "You're not really a grandfather because I didn't want that kid and I'm not ready for that kid so despite that kids existence I'm gonna ignore him? You wouldn't be ashamed that you had raised a man like that? :roll:
I hope it is evident that what I have been saying about the gift of fertility and its empowering nature is in no way suggesting that fertility is a woman's ONLY value. The ability of woman to carry and bear life is something so definative of woman (in contrast to man--it's what woman can do that man cannot) that the specific DEvaluing of women's fertility leads to a marginalized view of the value of women in general and is manifested in myriad ways in our society. One way is the disregard for life in general as evidenced in the acceptance and active promotion of an act of killing--namely abortion.talloulou said:It's not about telling women their only value is their fertility. .
Felicity said:YIKES!!!! Exactly what I'm talkin' about when I say Sanger's/PP's influence on the perception of women's fertility is ANTI-WOMAN! The fact of women's fertility is a BONUS for our gender--an HONOR--a thing to be REVERED rather than CASTRATED as so many do with drugs and surgery. When you diminish the unique ability women have, you strip that "specialness" from them. "Mere breeders"????? There is nothing "mere" about the gift of fertility. It is the perception that fertility is somehow a curse or illness rather than a supreme privilege that diminishes women in our society!
Felicity said:CoffeeSaint--I have kinda a personal question, but I am curious as to the thinking behind such a decision....
...If a "family" with children was never something you and your wife thought you would come to be--ever, what is the motivation for getting married? Why not just live together in a committed relationship? Is it simply a financial agreement for tax purposes and inheritance? I'm not being facetious--I am curious--I want to understand the thouight process.
It's okay...you can talk to me personally, I won't bite--I promise (unless you bite first, then I might nip a little, but I'll feel guilty about it in the morning:lol: )1069 said:other females on the thread
This is, in my opinion, a faulty reading of the value of fertility. Of course it is the WHOLE person that should be valued. The fertility of woman is a part of that reality of the whole person that is woman and it should be respected as such. This reality is true for all women--those who can or do or can't or don't effect that fertility--it is women who bear the ability written in the form of their bodies. Fragmenting people into various "assets" to be valued or not valued is shattering the whole person. That is what is occurring when a woman is detached from the fact of her fertility. Her fertility as a fact of her personhood--to strive to suppress that fact of "she" through contraceptive techniques that, in essence, chemically neuter her, denies an aspect of her whole person--specifically the reality of the fertility of women--and thus diminishes the whole reality of who she is.... society pits females against each other by devaluing them as they mature, unlike men, who accrue value.
In this atmosphere, women's lives become a desperate and ultimately futile struggle to maintain their positions in society, to hold on to their status, their value.
However, when the primary indicators of a woman's value are beauty and fertility (aka, "youth"), women are ultimately expendable, interchangable, and can be easily replaced when they lose these so-called "assets", with one of the millions of other women in the world who possess these same "assets", who are attractive and capable of bearing children.
I do not believe that "virtues" and "assets" are synonymous. People are of value due to not what they HAVE or can GIVE (assets), they are of value because of the dignity of who they are as a whole. You say as much in a few lines ...A person only has real value if their assets- their virtues-
ABSOLUTELY--these are things that are "virtuous."A person should be valued for what they do, and for who they are inside; their minds, their personal strength, their wit, cleverness and acumen, their diligence and conscientiousness, their generosity of spirit, their capacity to love others, the hard-earned wisdom they've accumulated over years of living.
Indeed--and fertility does as well. From the womb of woman GENERATIONS are born. Fertility does not exist and then disappear. It is a constant reality of womanhood--and even when a woman doesn't or can't effect her fertility--it is still a fact of her reality as woman.These things increase over time.
Exactly.And the qualities they would be valued for would be lasting qualities that increased as they matured and aged, so they would not be routinely displaced.
Yes. When the reality of womanhood is fragmented into "parts" or "assets" that can be exalted (such as beauty and youth) the flip-side is that the individual "parts" can also be rejected. But if womanhood is valued as a whole--as her whole natural being--one that is young and old, beautiful and wise, fertile and infertile--she is not rejected because some "part" doesn't "measure up" or is "unwanted."Society's perception of females as being primarily valuable and utile as mothers or as sex objects is hurtful to women as they age, and lose both their superficial "beauty" and ultimately, their fertility as well.
It's okay...you can talk to me personally, I won't bite--I promise (unless you bite first, then I might nip a little, but I'll feel guilty about it in the morning )
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