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Presbyterian group changes marriage definition to include same-sex couples

In reply to cpwill, p - mostly a good response with relevant assertions but with a few problems of positivity where there is little historical support. One problem with the modern understanding of what was written 2000 years ago is a lack of knowledge about the culture of the Eastern Mediterranean at the time. Though Rome ruled militarily, Grecian social norms still played a major role in the culture. What is seen by the modern preachers as sin, so of course they attribute the same moral system to the writer of the Pauline Epistles, was often an accepted way of life.

I will write it again -- We simply don't know for sure what was meant by the word, arsenokoites when it was created.

Statements of unproveable validity - they may be true but we don't know and should not make positive statements

The certainty for Pauls' intent is beyond credulity - which is why the attempt to insert uncertainty, after two millennia, is so very obviously an exercise is eisegesis.

1) "Paul was a fully-trained scholar of the text he is quoting"

Indeed he was - this is one of the most basic facts that we know about Paul - that prior to his conversion he was a trained expert in Judaic law. He studied under Gamaliel, for crying out loud, and was entrusted with missions on behalf of the Chief Priest.

2) "If Paul had wanted to discuss pedophilia, he would have discussed pedophilia and the term wouldn't be arsenokoites, but paiderastia" Why then did Martin Luther, 450 years in the past translate the word as one equal to paedophilia?

1. This is a strawman argument, and not even a good one. What Luther wrote more than a millennia later is irrelevant to the fact that if Paul had wanted to discuss pedophilia, he would have discussed pedophilia and the term wouldn't be arsenokoites, but paiderastia. Luthers' writing would no more change Pauls' intent than these posts would.

2. The German for pedophilia is not Knabenschänder but Kinderschänder.

2A) "the modern sexual revolution, when people began to engage in eisegesis in order to transport modern western sexual morality back into the Bible" - see above Martin Luther comment

See above response.

3) Ooops , this is supposed to be a list of untrue statements but this one by cpwill happens to be true -- "It is also a possibility that there is no Bible from that era"

There was no Bible at the time the Epistles to Timothy and 1 Corinthians were written. It was Athanasius, Bishop of Alexandria in 367 CE who first wrote that there were twenty-seven texts which he viewed as canonical - though they may not all be the same texts we know today. It wasn't until the seventh century that the book we know as the New Testament was accepted thru most of Christendom; there still are variations in what is accepted and what is not.

:) Good point and Bad point. The Canonical Gospels were written first century, as were Pauls' letters, and while they were all pretty much instantly regarded as Canon, official Canonical efforts didn't get going until the second century. The epistles of Paul were considered scripture by the time of 2 Peter being written, for example (2 Peter 3). Pauls' letters were written 20-35(ish) years after the death of Christ, and so yes, there is a Bible from that era, in the sense that the Bible is the collection of canonical books. But by the fourth century the New Testament was already pretty established throughout the Church. Like Creeds, official declarations of Cannon were mostly in response to heresy or division.

Interestingly, the very first Canonization effort was done by a heretic - Marcion; who tried to cut everything down to the "core" books that he thought were the most right (he hated the Old Testament and didn't like Jewish carry-over into the NT) - and that list of Core Books included the Epistles of Paul. But once we get much past 140 AD, all 27 of those books were already accepted across the Christian church, and only about a small handful were later disputed (authorship of Hebrews, for example, and Peter II)
 
This reminds me of Mr Rogers, quite possibly the most wonderful man to ever live in America, whether it be him gathering funding for PBS, his preaching of tolerance and love, his caring of others no matter who they are.. and he was a Presbyterian minister. Good on the Presbyterians, all religious groups need to be like this.
 
Okie doke. I'll put you down for, "of course it hurts same sex unions". Thanks for your honesty.

Do you even know the definition of rhetorical?

My attitude towards bigots on DP is what it is

To the extent i personally have any influence over the fate of same sex unions...In merely a decade we've gone from 1 state having SSM to 37, and 50 in just a few months. I must be doing something right
 
Do you even know the definition of rhetorical?

My attitude towards bigots on DP is what it is

To the extent i personally have any influence over the fate of same sex unions...In merely a decade we've gone from 1 state having SSM to 37, and 50 in just a few months. I must be doing something right

Don't start with the idiotic exercise of thinking you are the smartest person in the room, you aren't.

I'm no bogot, that's strike two.
 
Don't start with the idiotic exercise of thinking you are the smartest person in the room, you aren't.

I'm no bogot, that's strike two.

Bigots tend to imagine that homophobia isn't bigotry and that homophobia itself isn't real

Just like racists unfailingly begin a racist tirade with "I'm not a racist but..."

Denial doesn't change the reality
 
Bigots tend to imagine that homophobia isn't bigotry and that homophobia itself isn't real

Just like racists unfailingly begin a racist tirade with "I'm not a racist but..."

Denial doesn't change the reality

I'm not a homophobe either.
 
I'm not a homophobe either.

If someone is against gay marriage, I will place them in the category of 'homophobe", along with those who are against gay adoptions, etc..
 
If someone is against gay marriage, I will place them in the category of 'homophobe", along with those who are against gay adoptions, etc..

That's another absurd position you hold since there's any number of gays who don't believe in gay marriage. There's even a "Gays against gay marriage" site on Facebook. So I guess according to you there's gay homophobes?

Laughing Hyena.webp
 
That's another absurd position you hold since there's any number of gays who don't believe in gay marriage. There's even a "Gays against gay marriage" site on Facebook. So I guess according to you there's gay homophobes?

View attachment 67182328

That is more about not wanting to join the failed hetero institution that had for so long rejected them. It's more of an anti establishment thing and not at all the same
 
Magic doesn't come into it. :shrug: The point remains: the Author of Morality is it's source; follow-on interpretations of it by creatures with lesser understanding cannot come closer to the truth of it than the Thing Itself.



In fact it would and does - although God does not say that homosexuality (the attraction) is bad; He states that homosexual activity (the deeds) are sinful.



Oh. That's interesting. So you are omnipotent?



:shrug: in fact it would, though I don't know if I'd be able to carry it out.



It certainly does not, or it does not exist.

Look at yourself immediately above: "if a god told you to kill your son just because that would not make it the right thing to do". You are attempting to appeal to a universal standard - one that you expect both of us to share - that killing my son would be wrong. If you honestly believed (and you do not) that "morality is based on yourself", then you would lose any ability to make moral expectations (examples: killing your child is wrong, rape is wrong, genocide is wrong) of others.

their is no signaler author or morality god gods or not
 
Magic doesn't come into it. :shrug: The point remains: the Author of Morality is it's source; follow-on interpretations of it by creatures with lesser understanding cannot come closer to the truth of it than the Thing Itself.



In fact it would and does - although God does not say that homosexuality (the attraction) is bad; He states that homosexual activity (the deeds) are sinful.



Oh. That's interesting. So you are omnipotent?



:shrug: in fact it would, though I don't know if I'd be able to carry it out.



It certainly does not, or it does not exist.

Look at yourself immediately above: "if a god told you to kill your son just because that would not make it the right thing to do". You are attempting to appeal to a universal standard - one that you expect both of us to share - that killing my son would be wrong. If you honestly believed (and you do not) that "morality is based on yourself", then you would lose any ability to make moral expectations (examples: killing your child is wrong, rape is wrong, genocide is wrong) of others.

and I don't need to appeal to a universal standard to try and appeal to something that's hopefully common between us
 
I'm not a homophobe either.

Don't even go there, CB. All these people are trying to do is get you to sit down and shut up with these conversation stoppers. I say most of them are bigots who need to shut up and sit down.
 
If someone is against gay marriage, I will place them in the category of 'homophobe", along with those who are against gay adoptions, etc..

You can deceive yourself into believing whatever falsehoods you wish. Me, I prefer reality.
 
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