Yes it is. Where is the criticism? There is none. It's all, "Wow, Pope Francis has a slightly less draconian tone that previous popes, even if he's really saying the exact same thing!" That's all I've been hearing since this guy stepped in. So the message that sends is, "Yeah, we're cool now." But we're not.
What has typically worked when this is applied to countries is simply ignoring their requests to join until they reach that benchmark. No praise. If they apply, they are refused. They get nothing until they reach the benchmark.
And that is how the civilized world should be dealing with the Catholic church.
For non-Catholics, no, I don't think we should.
That gives the impression that this is in any way good enough. It isn't. The church is barely what might be considered acceptable to exist by legal technicality. That is not good enough in 2015. And if he wants praise and to be welcome at the table of civilized societies, then he needs to keep working.
No deal.
Please answer the question I asked you. Should the Catholic Church be suppressed?
This is an interesting baby step. Still a baby step, in a situation where long strides are necessary, but this is an interesting way to move the church slowly away from its entrenched misogyny and maybe remain relevant in the modern world. Whether he's as much of a force for good as some would like him to be or not, you really can't deny that this pope is crafty. He seems to have a plan and is definitely going with it.
I wasn't aware you were put in charge of brokering deals on behalf of all civilized societies everywhere, congrats.
Meanwhile, back on planet earth, there are a billion Catholics to whom the pope's actions are highly relevant. You have every right to not be one of them, but you have no right to speak for them.
I think positive reinforcement can be a good thing. I also think most people that had a problem with the church before Pope Francis still have a problem with it now, despite possibly giving props to the Pope for attempting to take the church out of the middle ages. I think future popes might see how popular Francis was and attempt to follow that trend.
The Church has always offered forgiveness to sinners of all types. There is no change.
Yeah, but it still seems silly that, because it is holy year, and because a special representative has some kind of supernatural power, he can mumble some words and wave his hands and revoke someone's ticket to hell.
Symbolism
Well, the reality is Pope Francis hasn't done much. Paleocon is not wrong; there's only one unforgivable sin, and abortion was never it. He is not doing anything new at all. He is just a better speaker than most recent popes. He's being praised for empty speeches, not real change. So he sounds better while peddling the same draconian nonsense. Whooptie-do.
He's working on changing perspective. If the Pope suddenly came out in favor of everything you would require the church to do in order to join the civilized world people would flip; it wouldn't work. He has to be subtle.
Obviously, in that gods and hell and supernatural things are all nonsense. But the power of such a big and wealthy organization cannot be denied and so it is better to use it for good than for evil, so I applaud any step that would push it in a positive direction. As I said earlier and as SnM pointed out, there's still a looooooong way to go.
In some respects, yes. It is operating criminal cover for paedophiles, and has been for decades, and in that respect, it absolutely needs to be "suppressed," by which I mean all people who have committed, covered for, or ignored these activities need to be sent to prison. They need to be dealt with as aggressively as possible so the Church gets the message that we will not permit this to continue.
Otherwise, as pertains to their questionable ethical positions and negative advocacy in the world, I think they deserve to be either ignored or openly criticized, and considered unwelcome at the table of civilized nation states, since the Vatican fancies itself a sovereign.
I get that it contradicts your most fundamental beliefs to admit that those beliefs require suppressing dissent, but let's continue with this.
Since you make wildly inaccurate claims (operating cover for pedophiles), I assume that you're referring to something else, probably the seal of confession, is that correct?
No. I'm simply talking about the working MO of the Catholic Church over the last 50+ years or so. It has been well aware of organized pedophilia in its ranks all over the world for at least that long (if not much longer) and has done very little, sometimes actively protecting known pedophiles. It's not my problem if you wish to bury your head in the sand, and since no fruitful debate can be held with you in that position, I won't bother until such a time as you pull it out again. :shrug:
So again, exactly what measures should be taken against the Church?
I already said this: the need to be arrested, tried, and jailed if they are found to have been negligent or complicit in anything having to do with this. Just like they are everywhere else in the developed world -- which the Catholic Church apparently doesn't consider itself part of.
Does that include confessors?
Does that include confessors?
I believe the Pope is trying to bring more left leaning ideas into the church in hopes of keeping his religion relevant.
He openly criticizes capitalism and says society should be taking care of the poor. Now he's trying to make the church less critical of abortion.
It ideally includes anyone and everyone who did the things listed above, and belongs to the human race. So yes.
Seriously, you're asking if such things are an excuse for pedophilia? Really?
People that confess to being involved in pedophilia? Hell yes it does.
People that confess to being involved in pedophilia? Hell yes it does.
I said confessors, not penitents.
My bad. Well, that does put the confessors is a very awkward situation. In the end I don't think a religion should shield somebody from justice.
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?