Politically correct language - the German way

[Rumpel]

Example:

In English you can say:
A: The teachers have gone with their students to visit the local bee-keepers.

In German you must say:
B: The female teachers and the male teachers have gone with their female students and their male students to visit the local female bee-keepers and the local male bee-keepers
In the original German:
Lehrerinnen und Lehrer haben mit ihren Schülerinnen und Schülern die örtlichen Imkerinnen und Imker besucht.

Else you may lose your job or have to leave university.

If you were a German, would you really use sentences like B all the time?

 

[Rumpel]

There is some more explanation:

female students and male students - which grammatical forms would you use?

English speakers are lucky that they do not have to mention all the time whether one speaks of female students or male students or both. In German it is like this: Student = male student - and the generic form - Plural: Studenten Studentin = female student - Plural: Studentinnen So you may...

debatepolitics.com

 

[medi]

I think a reference to this would help this thread:

List of languages by type of grammatical genders - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

And a very interesting sentence a bit down the page is this:

Proto-Indo-European originally had two genders (animate and inanimate), and later the animate split into masculine and feminine, and the inanimate became neuter.

 

[Rexedgar]

Some languages not only separate the male and female, but also the formal and familiar. In US English, there has been a ”softening” of the male/female. Example: Actor and actress used to be the standard, now just actor seems to cover the term. A sign of expediency or laziness?

 

[Chagos]

I think a reference to this would help this thread:

List of languages by type of grammatical genders - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

And a very interesting sentence a bit down the page is this:

This is really where the whole brouhaha (in this case with German) arises.

Where in English speaking countries one may go to see the doctor (the pharmacist, the lawyer etc.), the question of that person's gender doesn't even arise.

In German for doctor there is "der Arzt" (male) and "die Ärztin" (female) and by meanwhile general consensus it is insulting to the females to leave them out.

In a totally idiotic move to now circumnavigate the rather time consuming formulation of going to the "Arzt" and/or the "Ärztin", the grammar idiots from the gender equality squad have now come up with putting an asterisk in between (Arzt*Ärztin), which is not only written/typed but also spoken, although in its spoken form more like a hiccup.

This clumsy attempt at equality forming in no way addresses, of course, the fact that "the girl" (Das Mädchen) remains neutral/inanimate, while the table (Der Tisch) is male and should probably now be written as "Tisch*Tischin".

Where other languages such as French and Spanish "gender as well, they appear, at least for now, not as hung up over how whoever one goes to visit is "articled" (here, where I live, by"El" or "La").

Of course where naming, in English, the soccer linesman as lines person does indeed make sense, it gets really funny when non-native English speakers attempt to impose German rule onto that language.

Where the German "Fräulein" (little woman as well as unmarried female) is indeed a rather disrespectful form of address, especially since it is "neuter", the general address has long since been changed to the female "Frau", age or marital status be damned.

But when I worked in an international company in Germany that chiefly employed Germans but had English as the main language of communication, the females would insist on signing their correspondence with "Mrs." (+ actual name).

My objection that in English this solely denotes married status was derided with accusations of my being a male chauvinist, and even pointing out that those notable women who had "made it under their own steam" and preferred the address of "Miss" to show just that, was equally dismissed as nit picking.

That Miss Elizabeth Taylor or Miss Julia Roberts would never have dreamed of prefacing their names with "Mrs." was equally shrugged off, so I told the whole gaggle of stupid twits to go "make me a sammich".

That didn't go down well either.

 

[Rexedgar]

This is really where the whole brouhaha (in this case with German) arises.

Where in English speaking countries one may go to see the doctor (the pharmacist, the lawyer etc.), the question of that person's gender doesn't even arise.

In German for doctor there is "der Arzt" (male) and "die Ärztin" (female) and by meanwhile general consensus it is insulting to the females to leave them out.

In a totally idiotic move to now circumnavigate the rather time consuming formulation of going to the "Arzt" and/or the "Ärztin", the grammar idiots from the gender equality squad have now come up with putting an asterisk in between (Arzt*Ärztin), which is not only written/typed but also spoken, although in its spoken form more like a hiccup.

This clumsy attempt at equality forming in no way addresses, of course, the fact that "the girl" (Das Mädchen) remains neutral/inanimate, while the table (Der Tisch) is male and should probably now be written as "Tisch*Tischin".

Where other languages such as French and Spanish "gender as well, they appear, at least for now, not as hung up over how whoever one goes to visit is "articled" (here, where I live, by"El" or "La").

Of course where naming, in English, the soccer linesman as lines person does indeed make sense, it gets really funny when non-native English speakers attempt to impose German rule onto that language.

Where the German "Fräulein" (little woman as well as unmarried female) is indeed a rather disrespectful form of address, especially since it is "neuter", the general address has long since been changed to the female "Frau", age or marital status be damned.

But when I worked in an international company in Germany that chiefly employed Germans but had English as the main language of communication, the females would insist on signing their correspondence with "Mrs." (+ actual name).

My objection that in English this solely denotes married status was derided with accusations of my being a male chauvinist, and even pointing out that those notable women who had "made it under their own steam" and preferred the address of "Miss" to show just that, was equally dismissed as nit picking.

That Miss Elizabeth Taylor or Miss Julia Roberts would never have dreamed of prefacing their names with "Mrs." was equally shrugged off, so I told the whole gaggle of stupid twits to go "make me a sammich".

That didn't go down well either.

How’d the sammich go down?

 

[Chagos]

Example:

In English you can say:
A: The teachers have gone with their students to visit the local bee-keepers.

In German you must say:
B: The female teachers and the male teachers have gone with their female students and their male students to visit the local female bee-keepers and the local male bee-keepers
In the original German:
Lehrerinnen und Lehrer haben mit ihren Schülerinnen und Schülern die örtlichen Imkerinnen und Imker besucht.

Else you may lose your job or have to leave university.

If you were a German, would you really use sentences like B all the time?

I'd go with B), even if it takes longer. But at least it does not deprive the German language of its elegance in the manner that this accursed "asterisk-ism" does.

As to my penis, I refuse to assign it any double gender.

On calling somebody "eine Ärschin" (female for arse, otherwise male), I'm however prepared to be flexible.

 

[Chagos]

How’d the sammich go down?

With a Getränk*Getränkin (drink/drinkesse) it wasn't too difficult

 

[TheParser]

If you ever visit the States, be sure not to talk about a "pregnant woman."

Politically correct people now refer to a "pregnant person." (I guess that a transgender man can still give birth.)

 

[Rumpel]

But at least it does not deprive the German language of its elegance in the manner that this accursed "asterisk-ism" does.

Those asterisks are also used in German, unfortunately.

Lehrer*innen haben mit ihren Schüler*innen die örtlichen Imker*innen besucht.
Like: Teacher*esses and student*esses have visited the bee-keeper*esses.

 

[Chagos]

If you ever visit the States, be sure not to talk about a "pregnant woman."

Politically correct people now refer to a "pregnant person." (I guess that a transgender man can still give birth.)

Considering the bullshit that some men birthe, that's not so far off.

 

[Rumpel]

If you were a German, would you really use sentences like B all the time?

and what is your answer?

 

[Rumpel]

Example: Actor and actress used to be the standard, now just actor seems to cover the term.

Let's hope so!

 

[Chagos]

Those asterisks are also used in German, unfortunately.

Lehrer*innen haben mit ihren Schüler*innen die örtlichen Imker*innen besucht.
Like: Teacher*esses and student*esses have visited the bee-keeper*esses.

All those having invented this monstrosity should be removed from any public office and deprived from ever holding one again.

And I wouldn't be particular unhappy if they were made to face an "Erschiessungskommando*in (firing squad*esse).

 

[Rumpel]

All those having invented this monstrosity should be removed from any public office and deprived from ever holding one again.

I agree.

Not so sure if one should really shoot them ....

 

[Rumpel]

One can also see this variant in German:

Lehrer:innen haben mit ihren Schüler:innen die örtlichen Imker:innen besucht.
Like: Teacher:esses and student:esses have visited the bee-keeper:esses.

 

[medi]

This is really where the whole brouhaha (in this case with German) arises.

Where in English speaking countries one may go to see the doctor (the pharmacist, the lawyer etc.), the question of that person's gender doesn't even arise.

In German for doctor there is "der Arzt" (male) and "die Ärztin" (female) and by meanwhile general consensus it is insulting to the females to leave them out.

In a totally idiotic move to now circumnavigate the rather time consuming formulation of going to the "Arzt" and/or the "Ärztin", the grammar idiots from the gender equality squad have now come up with putting an asterisk in between (Arzt*Ärztin), which is not only written/typed but also spoken, although in its spoken form more like a hiccup.

This clumsy attempt at equality forming in no way addresses, of course, the fact that "the girl" (Das Mädchen) remains neutral/inanimate, while the table (Der Tisch) is male and should probably now be written as "Tisch*Tischin".

Where other languages such as French and Spanish "gender as well, they appear, at least for now, not as hung up over how whoever one goes to visit is "articled" (here, where I live, by"El" or "La").

Of course where naming, in English, the soccer linesman as lines person does indeed make sense, it gets really funny when non-native English speakers attempt to impose German rule onto that language.

Where the German "Fräulein" (little woman as well as unmarried female) is indeed a rather disrespectful form of address, especially since it is "neuter", the general address has long since been changed to the female "Frau", age or marital status be damned.

But when I worked in an international company in Germany that chiefly employed Germans but had English as the main language of communication, the females would insist on signing their correspondence with "Mrs." (+ actual name).

My objection that in English this solely denotes married status was derided with accusations of my being a male chauvinist, and even pointing out that those notable women who had "made it under their own steam" and preferred the address of "Miss" to show just that, was equally dismissed as nit picking.

That Miss Elizabeth Taylor or Miss Julia Roberts would never have dreamed of prefacing their names with "Mrs." was equally shrugged off, so I told the whole gaggle of stupid twits to go "make me a sammich".

That didn't go down well either.

What about the use of 'Ms.'? Although I don't use English as much as a number of years ago, I remember learning that 'Ms.' a bit back and still use it when I am not sure about marital status and need to use English in the situation. Odd that I should have to ask, but is the 'Ms.' still acceptable? Or has that changed, also?

And it is interesting that Ms. Robert was noted in a post because it was her during an interview on that Screen Actor's Guild, (I think that's the right title) when she used 'actor' in reference to her own work, I think, the first time I had the hint that 'actress' was no longer in, I guess, a common usage status. Or however that should be phrased.

 

[Rumpel]

In German it is now only "Frau" or "Herr".
Nor more "Fräulein" = Miss.

 

[Chagos]

What about the use of 'Ms.'? Although I don't use English as much as a number of years ago, I remember learning that 'Ms.' a bit back and still use it when I am not sure about marital status and need to use English in the situation. Odd that I should have to ask, but is the 'Ms.' still acceptable? Or has that changed, also?

And it is interesting that Ms. Robert was noted in a post because it was her during an interview on that Screen Actor's Guild, (I think that's the right title) when she used 'actor' in reference to her own work, I think, the first time I had the hint that 'actress' was no longer in, I guess, a common usage status. Or however that should be phrased.

I'm not sure about the use of "Ms." being continued either, just that (in my time) it sounded, when spoken, like Mzzzzz.

Automatically suggesting a snore.

Julia, to anyone neither completely blind nor deaf, is decidedly female and whether her profession is "Frenched" or not, she certainly engages in acting.

And darn well, to boot.

As far as I'm concerned I fell that, to use Brit "slangism", the whole thing has long since gone from the sublime to the "cor blimey".

 

[medi]

Yes, that point about "zzzzz" is good. I sometimes have some trouble trying to keep that to a single sharp 'z' sound and not dragging it at all. But it's sort of like hitting the brakes on an icy road.

EDIT: I agree, that Robert's lady used to do some good work. Don't reckon I've heard much about her recently. But then I suppose she may be about the same age as myself and is retired.

 

[joluoto]

I remember trying to read German and had fun about how every profession basically had to be said slightly differently if it was a female. It was like that in Swedish before. We had lärare (teacher) and lärarinna (female teacher), as well and others. In some it's still a thing, like a female cleaner is a städerska but it's städare if male. However in most professions we have just got rid of it. Mostly I think it is because as women entered new professions no one cared to invent a female version of the word, and thus people also questioned why there should be two versions of the old words. And thus people stopped using the female version except in a very few cases.

 

[Rumpel]

I remember trying to read German and had fun about how every profession basically had to be said slightly differently if it was a female. It was like that in Swedish before. We had lärare (teacher) and lärarinna (female teacher), as well and others. In some it's still a thing, like a female cleaner is a städerska but it's städare if male. However in most professions we have just got rid of it. Mostly I think it is because as women entered new professions no one cared to invent a female version of the word, and thus people also questioned why there should be two versions of the old words. And thus people stopped using the female version except in a very few cases.

Happy Sweden!

 

[joluoto]

Happy Sweden!

We also still have both sjuksköterska and sjukskötare for nurse, but no one differentiates between kock and köksa for chef anymore. I would also add that it's not wrong in Swedish to use the old female words, but people just don't.

 

[Rumpel]

In Germany we often have absurd situations.

One case is: "Oberbürgermeister" = mayor

What about the female form?

Can it simply be: Oberbürgermeisterin?
Or must it be: Ober-Bürgerin-Meisterin?
Or must it even be: Oberin-Bürgerin-Meisterin?

 

[Rexedgar]

I'd go with B), even if it takes longer. But at least it does not deprive the German language of its elegance in the manner that this accursed "asterisk-ism" does.

As to my penis, [/B[I refuse to assign it any double gender.

On calling somebody "eine Ärschin" (female for arse, otherwise male), I'm however prepared to be flexible.

”schwanzchen?”