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Good news, Poland is handing over Migs to US promptly. It's asking the US provide them with used American jets of comparable ability (F-16s?). Great news...
Ukraine war: Poland offers all its MIG-29 fighter jets to US in plan to provide aircraft to Kyiv
Washington has been looking at a proposal under which Poland would supply Ukraine with Soviet-era fighters and in turn receive American F-16s to make up for their loss.news.sky.com
Yes.Doesnt thisimplicate us, involve us in providing arms to Ukraine?
Not only has that ship well sailed (we've provided Ukraine with hundreds of millions in arms since 2014), but if we aren't willing to create a no-fly zone (which would be a mistake IMO) the least we can do is give Ukraine the means to defend themselves.Seems, yes. Which IMO we need to avoid.
For reasons that should be apparent as we witness the...operation effectiveness...of Russia's armed forces in Ukraine, Russia does not want a direct conflict with NATO.Escalation is not great news. What happens when Russia escalates too?
For reasons that should be apparent as we witness the...operation effectiveness...of Russia's armed forces in Ukraine, Russia does not want a direct conflict with NATO.
Yes.
Not only has that ship well sailed (we've provided Ukraine with hundreds of millions in arms since 2014), but if we aren't willing to create a no-fly zone (which would be a mistake IMO)
the least we can do is give Ukraine the means to defend themselves.
But this is getting pretty direct when they are aiding Russias enemies (as they see it). So the question remains. WHats next?
Well, Putin has three choices:Yes, but it can have similar implications as the above. Putin is just looking for excuses to justify his actions.
Well, Putin has three choices:
1 - start a another war he can't win against a vastly superior force
2 - eventually be forced to back out of Ukraine and blame unforeseen Western interference/meddling for Russia'shumiliatingtactical military retreat
3 - hit the reset button and hope the Russian empire is rebuilt in 1,000 years from the ashes of nuclear war
I find #2 to be the most likely as it is the only one that doesn't result in the destruction of Russia.
With what ?Escalation is not great news. What happens when Russia escalates too?
This was my immediate question from the article/post title. How can we avoid being accused of supplying Ukraine with the planes?
"He said that with Poland handing the jets to the US at their German base, it is like Poland saying to Russia "if you want an argument about this, have it with Washington, don't have it with us".
Doesnt thisimplicate us, involve us in providing arms to Ukraine? Seems, yes. Which IMO we need to avoid. OTOH, then he said this:
"And he added: "The main thing is for Ukrainian pilots to find a safe way to take the aircraft into Ukraine.""
Which is what I came up with too...maybe it's ok if they just park them at Rammstein and Ukraine pilots come and fly them out?
I dont know if that's enough 'hands-off' to keep Putin from accusing us of supplying them with the aircraft?
link
You started with incorrect assumptions. And you didnt actually answer anything. I asserted your 'third' in my post.You and @jonny5 are not grasping the nuances .
First, the US and many nations already provide arms to Ukraine - that isn't "escalation", its a reality. In the cold war that is what all the powers did, supply client states with arms BUT not combat troops. In Vietnam, the Soviet Union and China were well aware that while they could ship the North Vietnamese whatever arms they wished, they could not send Soviet or Chinese troops to engage in combat with Americans...not without provoking an actual war between the powers.
Second, Ukraine is a sovereign state. This isn't an issue of three or four factions engaged in a civil war, with great powers providing troops to influence the outcome. This is a full war of aggression by one state against another sovereign state. "Escalation" is a meaningless term if one side is fighting to obtain full conquest and the other is fighting for its survival. These are not measured responses; the war is already 'all out'.
This isn't any different than WWII. In 1940 the UK was not "escalating" the war, it was fighting for its survival. The US became the "arsenal of democracy", the country that would ship supplies and arms to keep the UK from losing. Same here.
Third, the planes can be shipped in by having Ukrainian pilots pick them up and deliver them. The Russians do not have the ability to seal off the Western and Southern borders, so most of them can be delivered.
Even Putin understands that he would be escalating to threaten direct military confrontation with western aircraft and western pilots...so do we. He might go nuke if NATO troops invade Ukraine, but he will have to live with anything less.
, i
Now to get them from Rammstein Air Base in Germany to western Ukraine.
Ukraine has an air base in their Western Operational Command at Kolomyla, which is about midway between Ivano-Frankivsk and Chernivtsi.
But how to defend the base against Russian attack jets and/or Iskander missiles fired from Kaliningrad?
Ukraine has a very nice Pelican mobile phased-array surveillance radar with a range of 250 miles.
But nothing like the US Patriot or Israel's Iron Dome. Igla and Stinger MANPADS, and S-300 systems (which Russia knows intimately).
Those fighter jets individually? It is hard to say. I don't think this will be the straw though.And will sending fighter jets to kill russians and stop Putins goals be more or less likely to result in an even bigger war?
You started with incorrect assumptions. And you didnt actually answer anything. I asserted your 'third' in my post.
Who says Putin isnt looking for reasons to escalate? I also implied that in my last sentence.
It's like you wrote all that on auto-pilot.
And will sending fighter jets to kill russians and stop Putins goals be more or less likely to result in an even bigger war?
Im not necessarily against an inevitable war, but simply saying sending Jets or more arms is 'great news' when we are not at war sounds risky and half assed.
They will be dispersed on field airports. Mig 29 can handle rougher conditions.
My assumptions may have been incorrect. However, I responded to the following:
How can we avoid being accused of supplying Ukraine with the planes?
"He said that with Poland handing the jets to the US at their German base, it is like Poland saying to Russia "if you want an argument about this, have it with Washington, don't have it with us".
Doesnt thisimplicate us, involve us in providing arms to Ukraine? Seems, yes. Which IMO we need to avoid...
In sum, my argument was (and still is)...so what? Why should we avoid being accused of the obvious? Of course, we, and all of NATO, are implicated, as we have been for months in giving a steady supply for other arms. The US and Nato have openly stated they are doing their best to supply arms. I bolded your statement that says that "we" need to avoid being implicated, in providing arms implying that if we can't avoid it, we shouldn't do it.
If that was your meaning, then for all the reasons I previously wrote to you, we need go ahead and give em what they need in whatever manner is most efficient and least risky... without fretting about being identified as the source.
If I misunderstood what you wrote, I am pleased to hear you explain your position again.
And will sending fighter jets to kill russians and stop Putins goals be more or less likely to result in an even bigger war?
Im not necessarily against an inevitable war, but simply saying sending Jets or more arms is 'great news' when we are not at war sounds risky and half assed.
by now they have dispersed their air force to field airports and have them all set up. The official airports all have been hit hard.Yes. I once saw a Ukrainian pilot land a MiG-29 on a one lane rural road surrounded by sunflower fields.
That said, the aircraft still need facilities where they can be fueled, re-armed, and mended if necessary.
It appears we arrive at different conclusions. Mine should be clear from my post. If it's not, I'm fine with that too. I'm not looking for you to repeat yours.
Or . . . they could have a secret partner, like Romania?by now they have dispersed their air force to field airports and have them all set up. The official airports all have been hit hard.
Submarine launched missles at someone.With what ?
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