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Pictures show pro-Russian seperatists moving missles away from MH 17 crash site.

Montecresto said:
Who are you saying lacks that skill, the Ukrainian military, or the Russian separatists?
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Since the United States military can makes such mistakes, most likely both. I was referring to the Separatists though.

Henry David said:
Nation states are a natural result of a society of human individuals. Men are social creatures.
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That's true, but doesn't quite capture of the subtlety of the distinctions. For example, a city-state is a similar construction whose authority structures only extend as far as a single municipality.

Nation states are a geopolitical entity that can tie multiple communities into a politically cohesive unit. As we understand them today, they started existing in around the 14th century.
 
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You are saying that even skilled militaries can make such a mistake? If so, yes of course I agree.
 
While certainly anything is possible, common sense tells me that this was the Russians & this is why.
First of all from what I understand these are fairly complicated AA systems and takes a while to train someone proficiently on, maybe up to a couple years according to the Russins themselves. Since the conflict hasnt been going on very long I'd eliminate the Rebels. This would leave the Russian Special forces or the Ukrainian Army. Since these are probably fairly expensive equipment along with the trained operators, I doubt the Ukrainian Army would risk losing a unit by moving it to within 25 miles of the Russian border. The few they have are probably guarding ther major cities, airports & military bases. The chances of that AA unit which would have to be moved by a large Truck & getting that close to Russia with Rebels swarming all over the place and not being detected are slim to none. If it was detected and the Ukrainians were busted it would be a PR nightmare for them, probably not worth the risk and probably not worth losing the asset in battle either.
 
Truth is we don't KNOW whether it's a missile or a bomb like Pan Am 103. STill too soon to know.
 

Well, you make the same argument for the Ukrainians that I made for the Russian separatists, you called them rebels, but then it was a pretty rebellious bunch that overthrew the Ukrainian government and seized control of the country months ago. By the way, common sense isn't always the same for everybody. Otherwise your entire argument is predicated upon the idea that this plane was brought down by a SAM, which hasn't yet been proven.
 
Henry David said:
Truth is we don't KNOW whether it's a missile or a bomb like Pan Am 103. STill too soon to know.
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True HD, but! The head of NATO, the WH, Australia, the Dutch, the UK, and a bunch of others already know exactly what happened. China says there comments are all "rash". Maybe all these people have been watching China and Russia's recent surge in military spending and they all think they better kick their asses now before they get too big!
 


This proves nothing.

This picture could have been taken anywhere.

Some picture is posted and you just believe it without question?

Not me...I need authentication from unbiased sources.
 
Luftwaffe said:
Now here's my question, why the **** would you go on a plain that you know is crossing through Ukraine?

I can't say they deserved it but they really did have it coming...
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1. Take a course in English!

2. How could anyone have reasonably known that the Russian imperialists and their lackeys would do such a stupid thing?

3. When will the revenge killings begin? There were a few Muslims on that air vessel.

4.. The US and Europe will not do anything substantial against Putin for business reasons. There will be the usual rhetoric but nothing else will happen.
US and European businesses will be hurt more and Putin is well aware of that. Not sure if Obama and Kerry are aware of anything.
 

Yes, it somehow reminds me of Dubya's statements back in 2001. Before the day was over, he knew exactly who had done what at WTC, and why they did it.

For a notoriously slow thinker that seemed strange.
 

You are the one that is questioning the translation, if you have any doubt then you should check with the Russians. Oh wait, they never mentioned it because there covering it up. Oh yeah, cause we're going to believe the same foreign minister that was trying to convince the world those weren't Russian troops in Crimea. I wouldn't believe him if he told me the sky was blue, since there's no such thing as a free press in Russia anyways. And we didn't choose a side in this conflict, it chose us. Not our fault that the Ukrainians kicked out the Russian Puppet President.

Finally, If we're so imperialistic, then how come we keep giving up countries we've fought for huh? The only imperialist in this conversation is the Russians... or did you not see them just annex Crimea?
 

Is it deception or dishonesty. If you're still denying the role that the US played in the toppling of the Ukraine government last year, I have nothing further to say to you on this.

Btw, I prefer a BALANCE of power and I don't appreciate the way the US has abused their power as the lone superpower these last couple decades. A re-emerging super power (Russia, should they be able to achieve it) or two (China, should they achieve it) wouldn't trouble me at all.
 
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America, the big bad boogeyman. Everything bad happens because of the US.
 
Luftwaffe said:
Now here's my question, why the **** would you go on a plain that you know is crossing through Ukraine?

I can't say they deserved it but they really did have it coming...
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An incredibly stupid and insensitive remark. Congratulations. You've set a new low in this thread. By the way, it's 'plane', not 'plain'.
 

I won't argue that we did support it, but we were hardly the reason for it is what I'm saying. If you wish to argue otherwise, then we can just agree to disagree and move on I suppose.

I am curious though, would you be fine if the Soviet Union was still in power, with half of Europe stuck under it's boot?
 

Thanks for acknowledging US support of the coup in Ukraine last year. That has led to Russia's reaction. I wouldn't compare this to Cold War Soviet Union.
 
apdst said:
It was a missile, fired by the rebels, or the Russians.

Cover-up: Ukraine rebels destroying all links to MH17 air atrocity | World news | The Guardian
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From your link.

Bob Latiff, a former US weapons developer for the air force and the CIA and now a professor at Notre Dame University, said he leaned towards a belief that it was a case of mistaken identity on the part of those who pressed the button. Such things including friendly fire happen in combat zones.

It's an unfortunate tragedy. Hopefully lessons are learned and commercial planes avoid the area going forward.
 

The SA-11 has a built in redundancy that prevents the system from firing on civilian aircraft.

Also, when the aircraft is painted by the fire control system, the profile of the aircraft can be used to identify the type of aircraft it is.

The rebs/Russians not only shot splashed this aircraft, but they knew damn well they were shooting at a civilian aircraft.
 

Serious allegations without a shred of EVIDENCE in anyone's hands to support it. You sound like your girl at the UN.
 
Henry David said:
Yessir, that is the official story since the get go. Copy that.

But that doesn't make it the truth.

Pan Am 103 used a bomb.
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MH 17 didn't explode in the air.
 
We've never admitted culpability for the incident. We've "expressed deep regret over the loss of lives" and that's a cop-out. Second we paid $62 million in restitution because Iran sued us in the International Court of Justice, not because we offered it willingly.

SETTLEMENT AGREEMENT ON
THE CASE CONCERNING THE AERIAL INCIDENT OF
3 JULY 1988 BEFORE THE INTERNATIONAL
COURT OF JUSTICE

http://www.icj-cij.org/docket/files/79/11131.pdf
 

You do realize that we didn't have to agree to even allow them to act as an arbiter, since we don't recognize that court? And, an apology doesn't have to have the words "sorry" or "apology" for it to be an apology. Expressing regret is the same as saying sorry or apologizing. We never denied culpability, as Russia and the Eastern Ukraine Rebels are doing, and we also admitted culpability when we expressed regret and then paid the money.
 
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