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Philosophy in the face of oblivion

Nomad4Ever

Dark Brandon Acolyte
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Something I've heard from more the theistic types sometimes is without God or an afterlife, what's the point of anything? If one day you'll die, everyone you ever knew or will know or who remembers you will die, the sun will explode and the universe will end and erase everything, why does anything matter?

I played a video game recently that examines this exact topic, but it was as good a philosophical piece of media as I've ever seen.

SPOILERS FOR THE OUTER WILDS! I highly suggest anyone interested in such things plays it themselves and stops reading.

A brief setup, the premise of the game is its a puzzle exploration game where you are in a time loop. Every 22 minutes the sun goes supernova and you fly around your solar system in your species early space program trying to figure out what's going on. You remember everything from each loop but (almost) nobody else does. There was some alien civilization before you in your system that all died out while looking for the "eye of the universe" which they believed to be older than the universe itself.

As you travel and explore the solar system it becomes apparent that it isn't JUST your sun going supernova...the universe is dying. Throughout the 22 loop stars slowly explode and disappear from the sky.

There is a conversation with an character in the game that I think really contextualizes the point the game is making. You meet another explorer sent out to map the stars. When you first talk to them early in the loop he notes a lot of stars are going supernova. Then they start to become concerned as more and more stars disappear as a faster rate. With your knowledge of the time loop you can tell them the universe is dying. At first they are distraught, and exclaims all their work was for nothing. Then...they gather themselves and if you talk to them again they say this;
1686060694025.webp
And you can just sit, have a nice moment with Chert as they play their little drum and keep them company as the stars go out and your sun collapses then explodes.

Eventually you solve all the puzzles and get to the "eye of the universe". When you enter it you go through a weird interstellar like experience where you gather all your friends and fellow astronaut explorers around a campfire and just play a song together. And you realize there is NOTHING you can do. Not only can you not stop your solar system being destroyed...you can't stop the entire universe ending either.

And so you sit at the campfire with your friends and just watch and wait until it takes you too. Then the game ends. Credits roll. After a few minutes "14.3 billion years later" appear on the screen and you see a solar system similar but different to your old one with a new civilization excited to explore the stars.

I really like the conversation with Chert. It doesn't progress the game in any way. You don't unlock a new piece of the puzzle. And in the end of the game you realize that everything you were doing, solving all the puzzles, trying to save everyone, was pointless anyway. Even Chert won't remember you talked to him or that you kept him company in the next loop. But I sat with him anyway.

The point was the experience. Small moments of human connections with the characters. Going to a planet just to explore there and not even to solve a puzzle. Sitting and looking at the stars and not worrying about how much time you have left in your loop. The game frequently forces you to slow down. To not race towards the end or singularly focus on solving the next puzzle. Sometimes by choice and sometimes not (there are many temporal puzzles that require waiting), you just sit there and are just present, listening to the soundtrack and watching a sunrise.

And so in the face of oblivion, the erasure of everything you've done, your entire species, and any marks they might have made on the universe the game shows you how to find meaning in the meaninglessness. It is a very melancholy game, but it certainly isn't nihilistic. I think it has a fantastic philosophy for how to process not only death, but the magnitude of universe we live in and our very small cozy place in it.
 
I am starting to worry about you..... You are going down a path that just isn't healthy...

instead of seeing it as a dark picture of existence, look from the other side. It doesn't matter if God exists or not, it doesn't matter if existence is meaningless or random, it doesn't matter what legacy you leave. Just being born makes you one of the luckiest. Chance on the billion! (If you count all the eggs and sperm that never meet, never materialize. Spend your winnings well...;)
 
I am starting to worry about you..... You are going down a path that just isn't healthy...
?

I'm not sure you got the intended message I was trying to get across.
 
Well, if I misread, that is a good thing...
instead of seeing it as a dark picture of existence
My OP wasn't describing a dark picture of existence. It is a question I have gotten during religious debates multiple times. A lot of religious people don't seem to understand how someone could process life, our solar system, or the universe ending without the existence of God or an afterlife. I've been asked how there can be a point to anything in the face of all that without an afterlife.

This post, and the game I described, provide a secular philosophical answer to that question. It was hardly a dark picture of existence. At least I don't perceive it as such.
 
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find meaning in the meaninglessness.

On my Mother's deathbed, she told my brother and I to love each other.

I included that in her obituary. It is the wisdom of a life well and fully lived - because in the end, it is all that REALLY matters. (Whether or not you are a person of faith)

Our interpersonal relationships. The "little" things.

The cup of coffee with a friend. Reading a storybook to your kids at night. The hugs, the cuddles. The simple, daily little moments. A smile and hello to a stranger on a sidewalk.

I think your video game is driving at that same point.


The odds of any of us, individually, changing the world or the universe are minuscule.

The odds of us being able to help one another find the simple joys - we can all do that. And it makes day-to-day life so much better. Not just for us...but for those around us.
 
I think what the game does well is, by forcing you to directly confront the erasure of everything and briefly feeling like nothing you did mattered, what it really does is wash away what DIDN'T matter...leaving only what matters the most.

Like, Chert, who was initially anguished at the idea of the universe ending and his first thought was that all his work was pointless. But after a moment he realizes that his work didn't matter and he shouldn't worry about it. Instead he just wants to spend some time with a friend, even for a moment.
 
"everything is impermanent" =Buddhist maxim. Still doesn 't mean life is inconsequential even for atheists

I'd like to believe in Christian salvation, i sure do when my back is up against the wall -
the old saying is "there are no atheists in foxholes".. facing death clarifies your fight to live.

So who knows ? samsara (cyclical rebirth)or salvation? It doesnt change my behavior.
The non-religious way is people are moral and good because they see that is the correct way to live your life,regardless
 
I think what the game does well is, by forcing you to directly confront the erasure of everything and briefly feeling like nothing you did mattered, what it really does is wash away what DIDN'T matter...leaving only what matters the most.

Like, Chert, who was initially anguished at the idea of the universe ending and his first thought was that all his work was pointless. But after a moment he realizes that his work didn't matter and he shouldn't worry about it. Instead he just wants to spend some time with a friend, even for a moment.
Well what I saw in your post was the monolog of Hamlet (since you pointed out that you where having a philosofic discussion...)Which point is that optimism is a false way of life. "There is no such thing as positive happiness". It is only weakness that allows one to continue living at all, which is also the point of this poem by Pär Lagerqvist a swedish writer and Nobel prize winner:(and please note that the poem is translated by me and not by an expert...)

Stinking garbage heap,
where I rot away under tears,
glorious great life,
loved by aces and fools!

I laugh with my mouth full
of blood and roaring hoarse screams
at you!
I'm laughing at you right in front of me!
I spit at the dirty vaults of space
and the pale snouts of the stars!

But do you scatter, sun, your bright straw
above the earth for us all
frozen little ones,
frozen little...
I want to lie in the straw and play.
Every little straw is lovely
in hands cold and pale.
 
I just asked ChatGPT to "write a poem about the futility of life". It came up with this in about 5 seconds. That thing is AMAZING!

In shadows deep where thoughts reside,
Where ponderings of life reside,
I'll paint a verse, with somber hue,
A tale of futility, dark and true.

Life, a fleeting flame in endless night,
A fragile spark, a brief respite,
We chase elusive dreams, it seems,
Only to find fleeting, transient gleams.

We strive, we toil, with hearts aflame,
Yet time's cruel touch erodes our name,
For what remains when shadows fall,
But echoes lost, whispers in the thrall?

The grandest empires, they rise and fall,
Their splendor fades, crumbles, sprawls,
The monuments we raise with pride,
Are consumed by time's relentless tide.

Love's tender touch, a bittersweet kiss,
Yet hearts entwined know not eternal bliss,
For passion wanes, and fades away,
Leaving hollow echoes of yesterday.

Knowledge sought, an endless quest,
But wisdom found brings no true rest,
For the more we learn, the more we see,
The vast expanse of our ignorance, decree.

And what of dreams that dance in the night,
That guide our steps, with hope ignite?
They too succumb to life's cruel sway,
As illusions shatter in the light of day.

But amidst the bleakness, a glimmer yet,
A flicker of hope we mustn't forget,
For within this dance of futility,
Lies the power to shape our destiny.

Though life may be transient, ephemeral, brief,
We hold the brush, a canvas to weave,
In every moment, a choice to make,
To find purpose, despite the futility's ache.

So let us embrace the shadows' plight,
And find solace in the search for light,
For though life may seem a futile race,
It's within our hands to leave a trace.

In hearts we touch, in lives we mend,
In moments shared, connections blend,
And though our fate is bound to be,
Let's find meaning in life's futility.
 
Something I've heard from more the theistic types sometimes is without God or an afterlife, what's the point of anything? If one day you'll die, everyone you ever knew or will know or who remembers you will die, the sun will explode and the universe will end and erase everything, why does anything matter?

I never understood this sort of premise. Why does there have to be a point, and why does anything have to matter? The fact that we might wish it to be so doesn't mean that it has to be true.
 
A brief setup, the premise of the game is its a puzzle exploration game......
Heh. Sounds about right. Except less than 1% of all stars go supernova. And BTW, the rate of new star formation started to decline about 5 or 6 billion years ago. Still, it took billions of years for intelligent life to evolve on this planet; we shouldn't waste the opportunity, regardless of the inconceivably distant fate of the Universe.
 
I am starting to worry about you..... You are going down a path that just isn't healthy...

instead of seeing it as a dark picture of existence, look from the other side. It doesn't matter if God exists or not, it doesn't matter if existence is meaningless or random, it doesn't matter what legacy you leave. Just being born makes you one of the luckiest. Chance on the billion! (If you count all the eggs and sperm that never meet, never materialize. Spend your winnings well...;)
Does it actually work that way? Did the infant that became me only result if that particular sperm fertilized that particular egg? Otherwise the human that became me would never exist? Could the person who became me not have occurred in another sperm and egg? Definitely a philosophical question. I can't think of anyway to test for an answer.
 
Could the person who became me not have occurred in another sperm and egg?
Of course not.
It must be wonderful to live in a black and white world where everything is as you expect to be. You're probably right but there's no basis for certainty.
This is proven by 385,000 human births every day that are NOT YOU.
I concede that they are in a different body, with different DNA. You're probably right. But unless you created the reality we observe how do you know how things work? What empirical test could you run to prove I'm Drewpaul and I'm not also Noodlegawd? Clearly he's not me in body or DNA but we're not referring to that when we refer to ourselves as me. Are we?

Found an interesting book I plan to read.

Do We Have Minds of Our Own?​

The strange, startling, and competing explanations for human—and possibly nonhuman—consciousness.

Engineers, meanwhile, have created impressive simulations of the brain in artificial neural networks—though the abilities of these machines have only made the difference between intelligence and consciousness more stark. Artificial intelligence can now beat us in chess and Go; it can predict the onset of cancer as well as human oncologists and recognize financial fraud more accurately than professional auditors. But, if intelligence and reason can be performed without subjective awareness, then what is responsible for consciousness? Answering this question, Chalmers argued, was not simply a matter of locating a process in the brain that is responsible for producing consciousness or correlated with it. Such a discovery still would fail to explain why such correlations exist or why they lead to one kind of experience rather than another—or to nothing at all.

 
....what is responsible for consciousness? Answering this question, Chalmers argued, was not simply a matter of locating a process in the brain that is responsible for producing consciousness or correlated with it.
It's emergent.
 
A threshold of neural connections is passed, and a new meta-state emerges.
Then the goobeldy gook attaches itself to the 3 dimensional conscience halo inverter and thinking occurs.
 
It must be wonderful to live in a black and white world where everything is as you expect to be. You're probably right but there's no basis for certainty.
And thus you have perfectly defined “philosophy” wherein there is “no basis for certainty” in anything! And thus philosophers can talk and talk and talk for centuries on end and never discover anything at all “with certainty”. What really is the point?
 
And thus you have perfectly defined “philosophy” wherein there is “no basis for certainty” in anything! And thus philosophers can talk and talk and talk for centuries on end and never discover anything at all “with certainty”. What really is the point?

I have found certain philosophical attitudes and approaches are very helpful, even therapeutic in various certain conditions.

For example, when faced with death of a loved one, or a serious illness, or loss of a job, etc... I have found the ancient stoics or Buddhist writings very helpful.

When thinking about long term life plans, long term strategies for growth, etc... I have found Nietzsche or the the existentialist writers very helpful.

When thinking about judging truth claims, absolutism vs relativism, "fake news" vs rigid dogma, etc.... I have found the American pragmatists like Dewey or Rorty very helpful.

When thinking about difficult moral dilemmas and choices, I have found Isaiah Berlin very helpful.

I can go on and on. But the point is none of these approaches is "true" or "false" per se. But that doesn't keep them from being sometimes extremely useful, fruitful, and even psychologically therapeutic. That's why I don't think the lack of certainty in philosophy is any reason to dispel it as completely useless.
 
I am not religious but I do come from a family who are extremely religious. Then talk of an afterlife is endless with them. Their whole lives revolve around this notion.

One day I made a statement to my sister, "What if this life is your gift?" "What if you're waisting it working toward the next one?" Of course it took her all of 3 minutes to rattle off a bible verse to prove me wrong but that just proved my point. We should live like this is our gift, the good, the bad, the in-between.

The game looks good, I may have to give it a play.
 
I am not religious but I do come from a family who are extremely religious. Then talk of an afterlife is endless with them. Their whole lives revolve around this notion.

One day I made a statement to my sister, "What if this life is your gift?" "What if you're waisting it working toward the next one?" Of course it took her all of 3 minutes to rattle off a bible verse to prove me wrong but that just proved my point. We should live like this is our gift, the good, the bad, the in-between.

The game looks good, I may have to give it a play.
I can't account for your family but most extremely religious folks spend this life helping others by feeding and clothing the poor or volunteering in hospitals, or providing food and shelter for immigrants at the border. Or supporting ministries that bring relief to the arm pits of the world. My wife, who unlike me is very devout, spends two days a week feeding the homeless. Waste of time?
 
Something I've heard from more the theistic types sometimes is without God or an afterlife, what's the point of anything? If one day you'll die, everyone you ever knew or will know or who remembers you will die, the sun will explode and the universe will end and erase everything, why does anything matter?

I played a video game recently that examines this exact topic, but it was as good a philosophical piece of media as I've ever seen.

SPOILERS FOR THE OUTER WILDS! I highly suggest anyone interested in such things plays it themselves and stops reading.

A brief setup, the premise of the game is its a puzzle exploration game where you are in a time loop. Every 22 minutes the sun goes supernova and you fly around your solar system in your species early space program trying to figure out what's going on. You remember everything from each loop but (almost) nobody else does. There was some alien civilization before you in your system that all died out while looking for the "eye of the universe" which they believed to be older than the universe itself.

As you travel and explore the solar system it becomes apparent that it isn't JUST your sun going supernova...the universe is dying. Throughout the 22 loop stars slowly explode and disappear from the sky.

There is a conversation with an character in the game that I think really contextualizes the point the game is making. You meet another explorer sent out to map the stars. When you first talk to them early in the loop he notes a lot of stars are going supernova. Then they start to become concerned as more and more stars disappear as a faster rate. With your knowledge of the time loop you can tell them the universe is dying. At first they are distraught, and exclaims all their work was for nothing. Then...they gather themselves and if you talk to them again they say this;
View attachment 67451250
And you can just sit, have a nice moment with Chert as they play their little drum and keep them company as the stars go out and your sun collapses then explodes.

Eventually you solve all the puzzles and get to the "eye of the universe". When you enter it you go through a weird interstellar like experience where you gather all your friends and fellow astronaut explorers around a campfire and just play a song together. And you realize there is NOTHING you can do. Not only can you not stop your solar system being destroyed...you can't stop the entire universe ending either.

And so you sit at the campfire with your friends and just watch and wait until it takes you too. Then the game ends. Credits roll. After a few minutes "14.3 billion years later" appear on the screen and you see a solar system similar but different to your old one with a new civilization excited to explore the stars.

I really like the conversation with Chert. It doesn't progress the game in any way. You don't unlock a new piece of the puzzle. And in the end of the game you realize that everything you were doing, solving all the puzzles, trying to save everyone, was pointless anyway. Even Chert won't remember you talked to him or that you kept him company in the next loop. But I sat with him anyway.

The point was the experience. Small moments of human connections with the characters. Going to a planet just to explore there and not even to solve a puzzle. Sitting and looking at the stars and not worrying about how much time you have left in your loop. The game frequently forces you to slow down. To not race towards the end or singularly focus on solving the next puzzle. Sometimes by choice and sometimes not (there are many temporal puzzles that require waiting), you just sit there and are just present, listening to the soundtrack and watching a sunrise.

And so in the face of oblivion, the erasure of everything you've done, your entire species, and any marks they might have made on the universe the game shows you how to find meaning in the meaninglessness. It is a very melancholy game, but it certainly isn't nihilistic. I think it has a fantastic philosophy for how to process not only death, but the magnitude of universe we live in and our very small cozy place in it.
 
The inital and worst fault is to think that because you can consider both possibilities there is no Truth in the matter. But right now there is a God or there isn't. If there is and you haven't a clue then something is wrong with YOU. And if there were not you'd have to wonder how the question could still be open after billions of adherent and thousands of years....which suggests that it is a MORAL problem and not an intellectual one.
I mean, a good God does not make faith for a teenager and faith for a genius depend totally on the receiver of Faith. that would make no sense.

Further, if you are going to argue for an evil God , you can't explain where goodness comes from.

========================
But the pointer to what is wrong with your approach is what are called Deaths of Despair , which make no sense if there is nothing more than here and now.

As Princeton economists Anne Case and Angus Deaton first pointed out in a 2015 paper, working-age white men and women without four-year college degrees were dying of suicide, drug overdoses, and alcohol-related liver disease — what Case and Deaton termed “deaths of despair” — at unprecedented rates. In 2017 alone, there were 158,000 deaths of despair in the US: the equivalent of “three fully loaded Boeing 737 MAX jets falling out of the sky every day for a year.”

So I'll just give my epiphany. It comes from Viktor Frankl and his long horrible experience in the Concentration Camps in Germany.

Psychiatrist Viktor Frankl writes, “despair is suffering without meaning”. 4. Those who despair of their suffering find life unbearable; as a result, they may want to die or commit suicide

“He who has a why to live for can bear almost any how.”

Without hope, meaning, a future, death will come soon

So let's not get all theoretical talking about people who kill themselves. THINK!! the answer (at least a good part of it) is obvious :
without God or an afterlife, what's the point of anything
 
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