Pagan mom challenges Bible giveaway at North Carolina school

KevinKohler · Jan 23, 2012

1Perry said:
We could argue that but it isn't what was happening.

The staff allowed interested students to stop by and pick them up.

I've seen Class yearbooks with many pages of solicitations.

A class yearbook is full of sponsoring adds. Yes, solicitation, but in add form, and they are paying sponsors, without which, no yearbook would exist. I think of that one as a kind of necessary evil.

If there was no solicitation about this location to pick up a copy of the bible, how did kids know about it? No announcements were made, no flyers, posters on the wall, no one sitting at the table handing them out, no nothing? Fact is, there was, likely, a stack of bibles sitting, visible, on a table, with a sign of SOME sort, saying "free, take one.....for your everlasting SOUL", lol. Dramatised, but you get my point.

1Perry · Jan 23, 2012

KevinKohler said:
A class yearbook is full of sponsoring adds. Yes, solicitation, but in add form, and they are paying sponsors, without which, no yearbook would exist. I think of that one as a kind of necessary evil.

If there was no solicitation about this location to pick up a copy of the bible, how did kids know about it? No announcements were made, no flyers, posters on the wall, no one sitting at the table handing them out, no nothing? Fact is, there was, likely, a stack of bibles sitting, visible, on a table, with a sign of SOME sort, saying "free, take one.....for your everlasting SOUL", lol. Dramatised, but you get my point.

I get your point......as long as others are allowed to do the same and the school decides that is what they want to do, they can.

Equal Access Act

The Act provides that if a school receives federal aid and has a "limited open forum," or at least one student-led non-curriculum club that meets outside of class time, it must allow additional such clubs to be organized, and must give them equal access to meeting spaces and school publications . Exceptions can be made for groups that "materially and substantially interfere with the orderly conduct of educational activities within the school," and a school can technically "opt out" of the act by prohibiting all non-curriculum clubs.

Equal Access Act - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You will note the highlighted part above. What that means is if the school allows non-cirriculum groups to meet they must allow all. Even religious ones. Being that the case the group meeting for religious purposes like the other groups can put a note in the school paper.............

The new lunchtime Bible study club will be meeting 10 minutes after the start of all lunch periods in room 302. For anyone interested they may stop by and pick up a free Bible.

I'm not argueing that this is exactly what happened in this example. It's why it's in the news. They did not follow the standard set by the courts it would seem.

DashingAmerican · Jan 23, 2012

KevinKohler said:
Statistically, more and more of them, these days. How else do kids get into drugs, booze, guns, etc etc.

By stealing from the parents.

KevinKohler · Jan 23, 2012

DashingAmerican said:
By stealing from the parents.

Whatever, they have money. I've already proven myself unscrupulous by being willing to solicit on school grounds, lol.

misterman · Jan 23, 2012

KevinKohler said:
A class yearbook is full of sponsoring adds. Yes, solicitation, but in add form, and they are paying sponsors, without which, no yearbook would exist. I think of that one as a kind of necessary evil.

Trying not to be a spelling nazi, but dammit, it's "ad" not "add." Sorry.

ludahai · Jan 24, 2012

Enola said:
Sigh. Always the double standard. Pass out bibles? Then pass out wiccan, pagan, etc too.
Religion should stay OUT of schools.

R.I.F.

They weren't passing out Bibles. They were allowing interested students to pick them up. No one apparently was forced to pick up one if they didn't want to.

The Gideons International had delivered several boxes of the sacred books to the school office. The staff allowed interested students to stop by and pick them up

ludahai · Jan 24, 2012

Hatuey said:
Can you imagine if the school was giving out the Communist manifesto? We'd NEVER hear the end of it.

I read it in AP History class... try again

ludahai · Jan 24, 2012

Enola said:
If I still had kids at home and my kid had a bible shoved in his hands, I would be VERY upset. How dare they push their religious propaganda on my child? He is a MINOR. He is in school to learn how to spell, count, read, understand science, etc etc etc. He is not there to learn some other scmucks religion. That is MY department. And HIS to seek out that which tickles his own ear. It not the school's responsibility to teach religion. Period.

This isn't what happened. Nice try, though.

ludahai · Jan 24, 2012

Ockham said:
The question would be: Has the school allowed local Muslim elders from the mosque drop off boxes of the Quran and allow the students to pick those up as well?

I wouldn't mind if they did... or the Catholic unabridged version of the Bible, because surely the Gideons were handing out abridged Protestant versions...

ludahai · Jan 24, 2012

Jerry said:
Only Muslims are supposed to touch the Quran, so it's unlikely Muslims even tried to make it available for the infidels to defile.

Totally not true. I engaged in studies of the Qur'an with a local imam and he not only made no objection to my reading a Qur'an, he made no objection to my entering the mosque AND he made no objection to my making comparisons with Catholic teachings in discussion...

ludahai · Jan 24, 2012

Jerry said:
Buddhists aren't known for their evangelical efforts, they pretty much keep it in their temple and their home.

It's note worthy to point out that this angry woman only brought wiccan material to the school in response to being outraged, whereas the Gideons have a centuries long history of passing out free bibles to whomever is interested. Her bringing material to the school was not a bona fied effort to make information about witchcraft available, it wasn't an honest effort to display her religion on equal footing. Her intent was simply to stir the pot.

This lady needs to just chill.

Perhaps, but it isn't a tenant of Buddhism and there are evangelical Buddhist groups and Buddhism very much has a missionary history... look up Asoka for information on that...

ludahai · Jan 24, 2012

misterman said:
So you'd have no problem if your kid brought Mein Kampf home from school and said the school was giving them away?

Read that in AP History too... what a bunch of horsecrap... no wonder why our kids are so undereducated today... no one wants kids to read ANYTHING...

ludahai · Jan 24, 2012

misterman said:
You don't get to decide that.

I want my kid to learn the religious beliefs I choose for him. The end. If I want him to learn about other religions, and which ones, that will be my choice only.

Kids have choices too.

misterman · Jan 24, 2012

Jerry said:
Only Muslims are supposed to touch the Quran, so it's unlikely Muslims even tried to make it available for the infidels to defile.

That's bull****.

Only a few extremist Muslims believe that. Stop spewing nonsense about things you don't understand.

misterman · Jan 24, 2012

ludahai said:
Kids have choices too.

Um, no.

A parent controls a kid's choices.

Older kids may have more choices than younger ones, but overall, a school may not simply override a parent's choice about religious beliefs by saying it's the kid's choice. That would be an obvious violation of the establishment clause.

misterman · Jan 24, 2012

ludahai said:
Read that in AP History too... what a bunch of horsecrap... no wonder why our kids are so undereducated today... no one wants kids to read ANYTHING...

That wasn't my question.

My question was if a kid came home with the book and said "they were handing it out for free."

DashingAmerican · Jan 24, 2012

misterman said:
Um, no.

A parent controls a kid's choices.

Older kids may have more choices than younger ones, but overall, a school may not simply override a parent's choice about religious beliefs by saying it's the kid's choice. That would be an obvious violation of the establishment clause.

But more and more often parents rely on the schools to raise their kids.

misterman · Jan 24, 2012

DashingAmerican said:
But more and more often parents rely on the schools to raise their kids.

So? That's no excuse.

A school may not infringe on the right of a parent to control what religious beliefs the child is exposed to.

KevinKohler · Jan 24, 2012

misterman said:
So? That's no excuse.

A school may not infringe on the right of a parent to control what religious beliefs the child is exposed to.

It's why we have private schools, many of them religious, in the first place.

tryreading · Jan 24, 2012

dontworrybehappy said:
And they tend to be one political lean.

How many times have you heard of a conservative making a stink about a nativity scene, a bible, etc? They might get up in arms if those things are NOT allowed, but surely not up in arms if they are. I guess the "Christian right" really has some punch behind it.

This nation was founded on God. Its on our money. It's in our swear-in speeches. He's in the pledge said in every public school classroom in the United States. He's there. Period.

Wow. How far back have you gotten in your history studies? Only to the 1950s? Because that's when the above things were done.

tryreading · Jan 24, 2012

Jerry said:
the real reason why she's mad:

No one put the bible on her son's desk, he stopped by and picked one up. He was interested in a faith other than his mother's, and she takes offense. She thinks, wrongly, that she has failed as a parent. Furthermore she is projecting her anger stemming from this erroneous guilt onto someone else so that she doesn't have to face her failure.

And now it's on DP...here comes the **** storm!

So, calm down folks. The woman isn't a failure, the child is just curious, and the school just set set the bibles out to be picked up.

No big deal.

They should not have been allowed by the administration of the public school to be left there for free pick up. Its wrong for a public school to allow promotion of a religion on school property.

The Gideons leave these books in motels for reference, or pick up, and that's fine. But churches need to leave their religious publications out of public schools. The agenda of the Gideons is to interest other people's kids in their religion, and that has no place in schools.

tryreading · Jan 24, 2012

nota bene said:
The article says, "The Gideons International had delivered several boxes of the sacred books to the school office. The staff allowed interested students to stop by and pick them up.
"Schools should not be giving out one religion's materials and not others," Strivelli said.

Is allowing interested students to stop by the office to pick up materials if they are interested the same as distribution?

Another question I have is which pagan spell books. The Bible (and the Qur'an) are universal texts. I'd really like to know which spell books Strivelli wished to distribute. One reason is that paganism is so eclectic. So is Wicca. Hived covens can be very small and have very particular beliefs--for examples, in fairies.

Here's a link to Strivelli's bio page with links to her three sites. I'm not interested enough to check them out, but I did note that the OP's Fox link uses the term "Witchcraft" rather than "Wicca" and that Strivelli's site uses "Magic" rather than "Magick."

I don't care if she worships cottage cheese. Its not important. Neither her religion not the Christian religion can be promoted in public schools.

1Perry · Jan 24, 2012

tryreading said:
They should not have been allowed by the administration of the public school to be left there for free pick up. Its wrong for a public school to allow promotion of a religion on school property.

Have you not read through this thread at all? Have you missed where the courts have ruled that this is completely legal as long as all are allowed to do the same?

KevinKohler · Jan 24, 2012

1Perry said:
Have you not read through this thread at all? Have you missed where the courts have ruled that this is completely legal as long as all are allowed to do the same?

I don't think anyone is arguing about that, anymore. I think the argument has steered more towards, SHOULD that be legal...

And just curious, what do you feel about it? Sorry if you already stated, I have not picked through this thread very carefully...

1Perry · Jan 24, 2012

KevinKohler said:
I don't think anyone is arguing about that, anymore. I think the argument has steered more towards, SHOULD that be legal...

O.K., perhaps you are right. If I spoke out of turn we'll continue.

And just curious, what do you feel about it? Sorry if you already stated, I have not picked through this thread very carefully...

I agree with the Supreme court ruling and agree that it would appear as if the school did not follow that ruling and was in the wrong.

Pagan mom challenges Bible giveaway at North Carolina school

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Pagan mom challenges Bible giveaway at North Carolina school

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