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Our Founding Fathers' Ideas

What should be done with the Founders' ideas?


  • Total voters
    58

Ignoring the fact that there are plenty of ambiguous and unclear things in the constitution, it's funny how often conservatives hide behind that argument when it's against something they don't like, and forget all about it when THEY want to make an unconstitutional law. Seems awfully hypocritical don't you think?

This country was FOUNDED BY THEM. They FOUGHT AND DIED so that you could freely malign them from the comfort of your private property. Their opinions are not more important, but they are certainly still relevant.

You're welcome to your opinion of course. If you want to take the founder's opinions into account when interpreting the constitution, go right ahead, just don't expect everyone to do it. Personally I think their opinions are irrelevant, since they're dead. If they wanted an unambiguous document, they had their chance to write it. They didn't, so it's up to us to interpret it, not them.

Honestly, I greatly respect them for that. I think leaving certain things ambiguous so that they could be interpreted as needed by future generations was a brilliant move on their parts.

You're just a typical liberal ingrate.

Yawn. Yet another poster, who, when they have no valid counter-arguments results to insults.

That's precisely what you're saying. If you think we should totally disregard the views of our Founders when interpreting the document THEY WROTE then you're throwing that part of our history into the dustbin.

Again, that's not what I said at all. Stop putting words in my mouth. You're welcome to take the founder's opinions (if you think you know what they were) into account when making your decisions about things, just don't expect the same of everyone.

What's creepy about maximizing individual liberty!? Is there something wrong with wanting to be left alone by intrusive government and liberal busy-bodies?

How Orwellian of you...

What's creepy is wanting to give more weight to the opinions of dead people than live ones. What's creepy is wanting our government to stagnate rather than grow and change with the times.
 
The Founders are irrelevant! They failed to foresee the advertising leviathan that has emerged and displaced their noble thoughts and profound commentaries. All tremble before the mighty Flo! Destroyer of the Founders and oppressor of humanity!

[nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DPhq_gC9pZs"]YouTube- Progressive Insurance Commercial - Flo Craves Tacos in "Back Up"[/nomedia]


Egad, how will we ever contend with such a mighty force as thee!?
 
I saw someone on here the other day say that the Founders are dead so who cares what they thought.

What are your opinions on the Founders' ideas and what we should be doing with them (if anything at all)?

We need to expound upon the concept of individual liberty (specifically the inalienable right of property) to apply to all persons and to include the concept of individual sovereignty or self ownership.
 
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lol so you think the intent of the law by those who wrote it is irrelevant?
 
lol so you think the intent of the law by those who wrote it is irrelevant?

Yes. How many times to I have to say this?

The only opinions that the founders had which are relevant to us today are those that they turned into laws.
 
Ignoring the fact that there are plenty of ambiguous and unclear things in the constitution...

I'm not ignoring that fact. I'm well aware that it contains ambiguities, which is why I think we ought to take into account the Founders' views when interpreting said ambiguities.

However, there ARE parts of the Constitution that are completely unambiguous, but that doesn't stop people from distorting the plain meaning of words.

...it's funny how often conservatives hide behind that argument when it's against something they don't like, and forget all about it when THEY want to make an unconstitutional law. Seems awfully hypocritical don't you think?

I agree. Not sure what that has to do with me, though.


So long as you accept the fact that your interpretation will be inherently inferior to the one informed by the actual writers of the legal document in question.

I also find it sad that you consider the opinion of such brilliant and principled individuals "irrelevant". Typical liberal hubris.

Honestly, I greatly respect them for that. I think leaving certain things ambiguous so that they could be interpreted as needed by future generations was a brilliant move on their parts.

How ironic. You're using the alleged intentions of the Founders to justify your position. I thought they were irrelevant?

Yawn. Yet another poster, who, when they have no valid counter-arguments results to insults.

If you don't like being called an ingrate then cease acting like one.

Again, that's not what I said at all. Stop putting words in my mouth. You're welcome to take the founder's opinions (if you think you know what they were) into account when making your decisions about things, just don't expect the same of everyone.

You're saying the Founders' opinions are irrelevant. The obvious implication of this is to throw said time period into the trash. That's the logical conclusion of your position; sorry if you don't like having your own position thrown back in your face.

What's creepy is wanting to give more weight to the opinions of dead people than live ones.

I never said I wanted to give their opinions MORE weight. I just think that they should be given SOME weight, as opposed to none at all, which is what you're suggesting.

It helps if you actually remember what was said and by whom.

What's creepy is wanting our government to stagnate rather than grow and change with the times.

There's this thing - dunno if you've heard of it - called "the Amendment process". It's a mechanism for change and adaption that was put in the Constitution so as to allow future generations latitude in the governance of their nation. Maybe you should familiarize yourself with it.
 
You okay there man? Did you just have a little stroke or something?

Just addressing the argument put forth by Mega. Apparently, modern advertising techniques have rendered the Founders' "theories" on human nature irrelevant. I was merely demonstrating the true extent of these devestating techniques. Most assuredly, the Founders could not contend with the likes of the Progressive Lady or the Geico Lizard.
 
I'm not ignoring that fact. I'm well aware that it contains ambiguities, which is why I think we ought to take into account the Founders' views when interpreting said ambiguities.

People argue over the freedom of speech and what constitutes speech, eg flag burning.
 
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Ah, I missed that.
 
Edited because I decided I'd rather wait until I can reply to everything at once.

My wife is on my ass to do the dishes. Cheers.
 

Dodges and misrepresentations. If that's all you got, then you got nothing at all.

Unfortunately, I've got to stop there. My wife is on my ass to do the dishes. Cheers.

Cheers!

Don't forget to smile while you're scrubbing... : D
 
I saw someone on here the other day say that the Founders are dead so who cares what they thought.

What are your opinions on the Founders' ideas and what we should be doing with them (if anything at all)?

The ideas are pretty much timeless.
They are a good basic set of rules without need of revision.

Anyone who thinks man has changed so much over that time, is mostly impatient about how they want man to change.

The truth is we are more or less the same as we were 1000 years ago, technology has changed, some ideas have changed but nothing enough to warrant a complete revision of the basic set of rules they created.
 

After thinking it over some, I've come to the conclusion that you're partially right. I guess I don't really think the founders' opinions are completely irrelevant. I just think they're a lot LESS relevant than people who are alive.
 
Some examples of ambiguity.

Article I section 8, the infamous "general welfare" clause. ...
Let's start with this one.

Madison expected you to say that and disputes your assertion in Federalist 41:

"It has been urged and echoed, that the power ``to lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts, and excises, to pay the debts, and provide for the common defense and general welfare of the United States,'' amounts to an unlimited commission to exercise every power which may be alleged to be necessary for the common defense or general welfare. No stronger proof could be given of the distress under which these writers labor for objections, than their stooping to such a misconstruction. "
 

LOL Why would it be irrelevant?
 

Who was the other author of the federalist papers and what were his views on the general welfare clause?
 

Well, I applaud your ability to be a superman who is not influenced by these things. You are truly a giant among us mere mortals.

Really though, I guess until you come back down to reality, there is no point in debating.
 
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Why do the ideas of the founding fathers matter more than the ideas of Americans today? The founding fathers weren't gods. They were human beings. We are no less human than they were, and our ideas of what our country should be matter as much or more than theirs did.

I don't really understand why some Americans tend to believe that the founding fathers' views mattered more than someone like Abraham Lincoln or FDR or John F. Kennedy.
 

Or every single effing person in this country. After all, it collectively belongs to everyone who is currently alive and is a citizen.
 
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Who was the other author of the federalist papers and what were his views on the general welfare clause?
Hamilton, Madison and Jay wrote them. Madison is considered to be the Father of the Constitution and comments on the absurdity of the modern liberals interpretation of the so-called general welfare clause, in Federalist 41, and a portion of which I already quoted. A lengthier passage follows here:

 

Because every president, soldier, sailor and airman who has served this country has sworn an obligation to protect it.
 
Because every president, soldier, sailor and airman who has served this country has sworn an obligation to protect it.

They swear to uphold the constitution, not the additional/other writings of the founding fathers. And, the constitution is a fluid document that has been amended over time, as the founding fathers intended.

Try again.
 
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