• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

On Coups, Attempts, Apologias, and Future Concerns

NWRatCon

Eco**Social Marketeer
DP Veteran
Joined
Mar 6, 2019
Messages
26,069
Reaction score
23,698
Location
PNW
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Other
As with other threads, I'll start with a definition to keep the discussion on track: Coup d'état: "a seizure and removal of a government and its powers. Typically, it is an illegal, unconstitutional seizure of power by a political faction, military, or a dictator." I'd like to keep it in the Loft, if possible, so keep the political snark to a minimum, please. My inspiration for the thread was actually something else in the news - Putin's saber-rattling about the anticipated invasion of Ukraine (Amid fears Russia will invade Ukraine, Putin points finger at U.S. and NATO in marathon news conference, WaPo), and the propaganda campaign he has begun at home to militarize the Russian population (How the Kremlin Is Militarizing Russian Society, NYT)

There has been considerable discussion on other threads (some I have started) about what happened on January 6, and how to categorize it. Those discussions will continue. In this thread, though, I want to focus on one particular concept and whether or how it applies to the current situation. A lot of ink (or pixels) has been devoted to describing what happened and concerns about recurrence. I'm going to post a lot of links to flesh the discussion out, because it is a discussion has been going hot and heavy in media and academia.

I start with Putin (Wikipedia) for a reason, and that is to discuss 1) how coups take place, and 2) how they are perpetuated. It is my assertion that Putin retained power in a coup, even though he was already in an elected position. That condition is important. Where I think his actions constitute "a coup" was with regard to "an illegal, unconstitutional seizure of power". Putin originally assumed authority legally (at least superficially). "On 9 August 1999, Putin was appointed one of three First Deputy Prime Ministers, and later on that day, was appointed acting Prime Minister of the Government of the Russian Federation by President Yeltsin." Then, "On 31 December 1999, Yeltsin unexpectedly resigned and, according to the Constitution of Russia, Putin became Acting President of the Russian Federation." "Yeltsin's resignation resulted in the presidential elections being held within three months, on 26 March 2000; Putin won in the first round with 53% of the vote." That result was contested, and there is considerable evidence to support manipulation. He was re-elected in 2004. But, "Putin was barred from a third consecutive term by the Constitution. First Deputy Prime Minister Dmitry Medvedev was elected his successor. In a power-switching operation on 8 May 2008, only a day after handing the presidency to Medvedev, Putin was appointed Prime Minister of Russia, maintaining his political dominance." (Emphasis mine) It was that power-shifting maneuver, and the subsequent meddling with the Constitution, that actually constituted "Putin's coup".

A coup attempt that fails is not, technically, a coup, because power doesn't shift. Among academics it is often argued that the usurping authority has to "hold power" for at least a week to have been considered "successful". It's also important to note that a coup does not require violence, although that is something that most coups involve. Often, though, the violence occurs after the shift in power, as the successful coup plotters consolidate their authority - eliminating competitors, intimidating or putting down resistance, taking over organs of communication, etc. There is also, frequently, an immediate or precipitous change to legal structures to "validate" their authority. At the same time, many failed attempts are merely precursors to subsequent, better planned and organized, efforts.

This is the ground upon which this thread is based. Next, I'll provide a bunch of citations to current discussions in the media.
 
I don't have time to properly respond right now, but I always appreciate how substantive and discussion driven your thread are. Legitimately better sourced and written than most daily news pieces.
 
I don't have time to properly respond right now, but I always appreciate how substantive and discussion driven your thread are. Legitimately better sourced and written than most daily news pieces.
Thanks. I try to stay substantive. I, too, have other commitments so will have to be back with those citations I promised.
 
I don't have time to properly respond right now, but I always appreciate how substantive and discussion driven your thread are. Legitimately better sourced and written than most daily news pieces.

I agree.
 
Going back to the definition of a coup I posted earlier, "a seizure and removal of a government and its powers. Typically, it is an illegal, unconstitutional seizure of power by a political faction, military, or a dictator." I wanted to compare that to how it has been discussed in publications, focusing particularly on the two elements, 1) how coups take place, and 2) how they are perpetuated.

The sources for discussing are extensive and varied. A sampling:
Trump Attempted a Coup. Here’s Why That Still Matters (Vogue)("This was not a coup like the one in Myanmar where the military seized the government, nor was this coup successful, because our democratic institutions held. But just because Trump’s attempt didn’t work this time doesn’t mean that it won’t work the next.");
Trump’s coup attempt has not stopped – and Democrats must wake up (Robert Reich, Guardian)("The former president’s attempted coup is not stopping. He still refuses to concede and continues to rile up supporters with his bogus claim that the 2020 election was stolen.");
The Trump Coup Is Still Raging (Williamson, National Review/NYT)("The more important part of the coup attempt — like legal wrangling in states and the attempts to sabotage the House commission’s investigation of Jan. 6 — is still going strong. These are not separate and discrete episodes but parts of a unitary phenomenon that, in just about any other country, would be characterized as a failed coup d’état.");
‘The coup didn’t work’ is not a reassuring argument (Bump, WaPo)("Donald Trump’s effort to hold power past Jan. 20, took two forms, one acute, one chronic. The acute attempt began and ended on Jan. 6, when a mob of supporters called to Washington by Trump and nourished on his false claims about election fraud beat their way into the Capitol and halted, if only temporarily, the final counting of the electoral votes cast in 2020.

But that violence was dependent on the chronic effort, those false claims of fraud
.")

There are more than a dozen others following the same themes: 1) identifying it as a "coup attempt"; 2) arguing that the effort is continuing; and 3) outlining the measures that are being used to continue the effort.
 
So, to the discussion: Were the events of January 6 a "coup attempt"? Are they continuing? Why, or why not? What elements of "coup attempt" are present, and what are missing?

Of course, I have an opinion, but I'd like to hear yours, first.
 
I left off one citation I think is critical: The Paperwork Coup (David Graham, Atlantic)("The violence on January 6 broke a long string of peaceful transfers of power in the United States. If the paperwork coup had worked, though, peace might have prevailed—but the transfer of power might not have happened.")

I tried to include several different cites on the same theme, recognizing that many sites are available only by subscription.
 
It's Christmas, so I suspect people have better things to do than discuss the depressing. Be well all, see you on the other side!
 
Back
Top Bottom