Cromwell is seen as a hero in Britain, the guys above go into more detail as to his legacy on politics in that country. We could talk all day about the power the Crown had before and after the Magna Carta, the Civil War and Restoration but it’s safe to say that the English King never had as much absolute power as his counterparts in France and Spain.Thanks for the detailed reply. My knowledge of English/Irish history would try to fill the head of a pin. I remember visiting London, years ago, and seeing the statue outside of Westminster Abbey, (I think it was.) Then I ran across the article in the old periodical and it was an interesting read. Cheers!
100 years after the restoration, the American revolutionaries were really fighting the Prime Minister, not the King.
So would I be.I would be floored if anyone in the republic had a kind word to say about Cromwell.
And again and again.The Protestants of Ulster never forgot that victory. 1690 is as important a date to those guys as 1776 is to Americans. They talk about King Billy like he’s alive today.
His campaign may have wiped out anywhere from one out of ten to up to four out of ten of the population of Ireland. It is hard for any native person to justify a democide matched only by the regimes like those of Pol Pot.
There was rather more to the Cromwellian campaign than that.That's weird, given that he only actually had to fight three sieges in two counties.
There was rather more to the Cromwellian campaign than that.
Aston was beaten to death by the Roundheads with his own wooden leg.
Not really. Drogheda and Wexford got wrecked, but nothing he did was against the rules at the time. If there was a practiceable breach in the wall, you surrendered. Or you didn't, and things went badly for you. Also, no shooting at the enemy after you've surrendered, or - again - bad things happen.
In any case, the campaign cost a grand total of one-tenth of one percent of the population of Ireland, not 40-60% of it, and most of those deaths were from protestants and catholics bushwhacking each other before, during, and after Cromwell's actual campaign.
ETA: From the link
Okay, so he was a dick.
But a not 40%+ population die off kinda dick.
He was dealing with a royalist counter-revolution.Agree that the atrocities of Drogheda and Wexford were fairly standard siege warfare at the time. But there were also sieges at Clonmel, Waterford, Limerick and Galway as well as battles in Dublin, Cork and the north. Cromwell has returned to England so wasn't present for all of them but they part of the campaign.
But as you say military deaths weren't that high, they were dwarfed by the deaths cause by famine, disease and forced movement. Cromwell's scorched earth policy cause a devasting famine and his army brough the plague with them. "618,000 deaths from fighting and disease out of a total pre-war population of c. 1.5 million, or 41 per cent of the population. Further confirmation of the above figures can be obtained from The Civil War 1642–1651 by Michael St John Parker." The confiscation of land and the banishment to Connaught cause further death and destruction.
Another 50,000 were transported to Barbados and sold into indentertured servitude which was essentially a death sentence. Another 50,000 soldiers who has survived fled to fight as mercenaries on the continent (ironically many to make life miserable for protestants in France).
Cromwell left Ireland a devasted wasteland.
It wasn’t just the challenge to his revolution, it was the brutality shown to Catholics due to his religious fundamentalism. His Settlement of Ireland Act banned Catholics from the army, from professions, from even entering towns. A massive grab of land and wealth which forced the Irish to the stony land of Connaught. Sure, bad shit happened elsewhere but what happened in Ireland was on a larger scale at the time.He was dealing with a royalist counter-revolution.
Contrast that with what was going on in the Germanies at the time, with 1 in every 4 people dying so Von Somewhere could add a curlicue to his list of titles, and so the Hapsburgs wouldn't have a sad.
If you're going to judge Cromwell for that sort of thing, you have to judge everyone everywhere in Europe and associated colonies.
Um, have you glanced at a map of the 30 years war?It wasn’t just the challenge to his revolution, it was the brutality shown to Catholics due to his religious fundamentalism. His Settlement of Ireland Act banned Catholics from the army, from professions, from even entering towns. A massive grab of land and wealth which forced the Irish to the stony land of Connaught. Sure, bad shit happened elsewhere but what happened in Ireland was on a larger scale at the time.
Lol, yeah ok that was a bad one.Um, have you glanced at a map of the 30 years war?
And there, if you were the wrong religion you both got converted AND lost your land and possessions. Starvation, here we come!
80% of the deaths in the 30 years war were from starvation and plague.
Cromwell was pretty small potatoes.
He was dealing with a royalist counter-revolution.
Contrast that with what was going on in the Germanies at the time, with 1 in every 4 people dying so Von Somewhere could add a curlicue to his list of titles, and so the Hapsburgs wouldn't have a sad.
If you're going to judge Cromwell for that sort of thing, you have to judge everyone everywhere in Europe and associated colonies.
No, their misfortunes were real, but Ireland thrives on ancient grudges and this one is really blown out of proportion.So would you say many of the complaints of the modern Irish about Cromwell’s atrocities should be taken with a pinch of salt like those of the Southerners bemoaning Sherman’s March to the Sea? Sore Losers’ Club over exaggeration?
he was a. bad personIt would be difficult to think a bigger villain in Irish history, the name Cromwell is synonymous with English brutality. The Siege of Drogheda is best remembered for the massacre of soldiers and civilians once the town walls were breached but Cromwell and his army committed these atrocities all over the country. “To Hell or to Connaught” was his command to the Irish after he took all the land east of the Shannon. It was there the descendants of the dispossessed planted potatoes in the stony soil and they would bear the brunt of the famine two centuries later.
very much so!It wasn’t just the challenge to his revolution, it was the brutality shown to Catholics due to his religious fundamentalism. His Settlement of Ireland Act banned Catholics from the army, from professions, from even entering towns. A massive grab of land and wealth which forced the Irish to the stony land of Connaught. Sure, bad shit happened elsewhere but what happened in Ireland was on a larger scale at the time.
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