Obama to business owners: "You didn't build that." [W:417]

whysoserious · Jul 18, 2012

Re: Obama to business owners: "You didn't build that."

Velvet Elvis said:
Again...is this something the workers of those companies have a problem with? Are they forced to work there?

Regardless of rules, regulations or practices...the relationship between worker and employer is a two-way street.

Again....let's say Apple is guilty of all those "bad" hiring practices and working environments. Is anyone forced to work there? Do they have the ability to force a current worker to stay there, if they want to go? As an employee, you have the freedom to go if you don't like it there. As the employer, you create the best working conditions you can, if you expect to attract workers. I'm specifically talking about "1st world" situations. Not whatever obscure little 5th world puissant business might fall under an extremist point of view.

So you are saying you want to see examples - hypothetical or not - of businesses abusing workers and workers taking it... but only in first world countries that have laws against it? Your argument was: "businesses don't do it here now, so why would they start if we deregulated labor laws?" My argument was that you can see places with no labor laws, and our businesses abuse workers there.

What else do you want?

Moot · Jul 18, 2012

Re: Obama to business owners: "You didn't build that."

Velvet Elvis said:
So, are you insinuating that *if* we got rid of those laws, businesses would just automatically go back to employing children, forcing inhumane work-week hours, and dangerous conditions? How exactly do you think that'd go over?

Let's say...oh, I dunno....Apple decided to employ 10-year olds, and forced them to work 60 hours a week at $1.00 an hour. Would you buy Apple products knowing that? Know anyone who would? Know anyone who'd actually continue working under those conditions? Know anyone who'd apply for such a job? Think that company would stay in business, if no one wanted to work for them?

What a coincidence that you mention Apple.....

Apple has admitted that child labour was used at the factories that build its computers, iPods and mobile phones.....
Apple admits using child labour - Telegraph

"APPLE has launched an investigation into practices its factories in China that include child labour, 24 hour working days and unsafe conditions at the plants which manufacture its iPhones, iPads and computers...."
Apple investigating practices at its factories in China including child labour - Technology, Business - Independent.ie

"...On Jan. 24, Apple announced “revenue of more than $46 billion” for the quarter ending December 31. Just try to imagine 37 million iPhones: that’s how many Apple sold in just the last three months of 2011 thanks for Apple’s manufacturer in China called ‘Foxconn,’” explained a Jan. 29 report on CBC News “Sunday Morning.” This report also pointed to “The dark side of shiny Apple products” in a lead story headline that detailed massive child “slave labor” and “regular suicides” by those Foxconn employees – including young children -- “who make each and every iPhone by hand,” for what amounts to, state experts, “as slave wages.” At the same time, high tech and cutting edge micro-electronics manufacturing used to be a huge part of the Made in America brand here in Portland’s version of Silicon Valley, but now China’s “Foxconn” is producing the most advanced technology for Apple’s iPhone, iPad and other American high-tech companies are following suit by sending most of their business to Foxconn...."
Apple's Foxconn electronics manufacturer blamed for Chinese child slave labor | HULIQ

I worked in Seoul South Korea and there the people work 16 hour days, 6 days a week and they sleep on mats on the floor under their desks during the 8 hours they arent working. It made me appreciate my own country and our labor laws a lot more.

washunut · Jul 18, 2012

Re: Obama to business owners: "You didn't build that."

Moot said:
Then everyone's wages would go down because they would be competing with people willing to work for $3 a day.

Only if they had the skills to compete with whatever job you do.

whysoserious · Jul 18, 2012

Re: Obama to business owners: "You didn't build that."

washunut said:
Only if they had the skills to compete with whatever job you do.

Aren't we talking about minimum wage jobs? LOL

Moot · Jul 18, 2012

Re: Obama to business owners: "You didn't build that."

TurtleDude said:
you obviously have a specious and confused understanding of the right.

Is "specious" your new word of the day? You obviously have a feckless understanding of both the left and the right.

washunut · Jul 18, 2012

Re: Obama to business owners: "You didn't build that."

whysoserious said:
Aren't we talking about minimum wage jobs? LOL

In many areas around here, even fast food places have to pay more than minimum wage to get people to work there.

radcen · Jul 18, 2012

Re: Obama to business owners: "You didn't build that."

Zyphlin said:
For those interested in a reading of it without any additional outside commentary and other such things....Transcript for you from the white house

LINK

The money quote in full

There are a lot of wealthy, successful Americans who agree with me — because they want to give something back. They know they didn’t — look, if you’ve been successful, you didn’t get there on your own. You didn’t get there on your own. I’m always struck by people who think, well, it must be because I was just so smart. There are a lot of smart people out there. It must be because I worked harder than everybody else. Let me tell you something — there are a whole bunch of hardworking people out there. (Applause.) If you were successful, somebody along the line gave you some help. There was a great teacher somewhere in your life. Somebody helped to create this unbelievable American system that we have that allowed you to thrive. Somebody invested in roads and bridges. If you’ve got a business — you didn’t build that. Somebody else made that happen. The Internet didn’t get invented on its own. Government research created the Internet so that all the companies could make money off the Internet. The point is, is that when we succeed, we succeed because of our individual initiative, but also because we do things together. There are some things, just like fighting fires, we don’t do on our own. I mean, imagine if everybody had their own fire service. That would be a hard way to organize fighting fires

Click to expand...

So, essentially, he re-phrased what Elizabeth Warren said a few months ago. :yawn:

whysoserious · Jul 19, 2012

Re: Obama to business owners: "You didn't build that."

washunut said:
In many areas around here, even fast food places have to pay more than minimum wage to get people to work there.

So you think labor and minimum wage laws should be repealed, but that wages and work conditions won't be reduced because in some areas wages are above minimum wages already? Well, pardon me, but wtf is the point of removing these laws then?

Furiounova · Jul 19, 2012

Re: Obama to business owners: "You didn't build that."

Moot said:
Then everyone's wages would go down because they would be competing with people willing to work for $3 a day.

We need an economic structure not centered entirely on currency. There must be a way to create a system that doesn't punish people who don't want to earn a million dollars and also not punish people who do. A system with a baseline for housing, food, medical care, etc would hold people accountable to society because those items would be provided as long as people are working. The job doesn't matter. A system like that would eliminate much of the money used for welfare and would not hinder capitalism for those who seek it.

In short, there has to be a way to combine socialism and capitalism where the benefits of both are harnessed and the pitfalls of both are avoided.

Henrin · Jul 19, 2012

Re: Obama to business owners: "You didn't build that."

Furiounova said:
We need an economic structure not centered entirely on currency. There must be a way to create a system that doesn't punish people who don't want to earn a million dollars and also not punish people who do. A system with a baseline for housing, food, medical care, etc would hold people accountable to society because those items would be provided as long as people are working. The job doesn't matter. A system like that would eliminate much of the money used for welfare and would not hinder capitalism for those who seek it.

In short, there has to be a way to combine socialism and capitalism where the benefits of both are harnessed and the pitfalls of both are avoided.

Its called a planned economy and we are practicing it right now. However, your premise is ridiculous. Socialism hinders capitalism by its very existence in the system. Think of it in the most simplistic of terms if you must. Capitalism is built around rational behavior, while socialism simply ignores it and tries to find value without it and uses tools that heavily rely on guess work and desires of the leaders. It is completely impossible for it to solve any sort of problem in front of you.

washunut · Jul 19, 2012

Re: Obama to business owners: "You didn't build that."

whysoserious said:
So you think labor and minimum wage laws should be repealed, but that wages and work conditions won't be reduced because in some areas wages are above minimum wages already? Well, pardon me, but wtf is the point of removing these laws then?

Are you drunk? Where did I say get rid of minimum wage laws??? I just noted that around here you have a hard time getting people to work for minimum wage.

Phys251 · Jul 19, 2012

Re: Obama to business owners: "You didn't build that."

What in the name of God is all this retarded outrage over?? Why does the Far Right get their panties in a wad whenever the president speaks with brutal honesty? Are they so married to their ideal that rich people magically get to where they are and stay where they are, all on their own? Puh-lease! Do you think for one minute that he's actually wrong here? Do you think that America's hierarchical status could survive for one second if we were nothing but a nation of CEOs? LOL! Our system is built on the backs of the laborers and middle class who enable those people's prosperity in the first place. And to think that merely acknowledging this fact has sent the Far Right into their latest outrage frenzy. Get over it already! It needed to be said, and thank God we have a president willing to say it!

AdamT · Jul 19, 2012

Re: Obama to business owners: "You didn't build that."

Moot said:
I thought he was talking about you.

The left doesn't worship, the right does. The right wants more government control in the form of a police state aka fascism. The right constantly wants more money to build more prisons and warehouse people for the rest of their lives at taxpayer expense and when they aren't harping about that they whine for more money to spend on weapons and military to control other countries.

Come on now, the right understands that government doesn't create jobs! Unless you're talking about military spending. :lol:

SEN. KELLY AYOTTE

Now: “So we’re not just talking about the jobs issue, which is, of course, of concern to anyone who serves in Congress. We’re talking about lost lives if we don’t give our men and women the equipment that they need.” [6/24/12]

Then: “It’s not the government that’s going to create jobs in this country, it’s our small businesses, it’s the private sector.” [9/22/10]

SEN. JON KYL

Now: “The whole point here [staving off the sequester] is to try to get some economic growth, job creation, to get out of this recession.” [5/24/12]

Then: “Faced with the reality of historic unemployment rates and record federal debt, I had hoped that President Obama, by now, would understand that even more government spending doesn’t create jobs.” [9/09/11]

REP. BUCK MCKEON

Now: “Sequestration’s impact on the economy would be sudden and severe, … result[ing] in the loss of about 1 million jobs in 2013 and 2014 and a half a percent cut to America’s already meager economic growth.” [6/24/12]

Then: “We don’t look to the government usually to create jobs. What we like to see them do is get out of our hair and let us create the jobs.” [5/21/12]

REP. RANDY FORBES

Now: “For reasons of both national security and local jobs, citizens of Hampton Roads ought to carefully consider the sober assessments of our military commanders and leaders regarding the impacts of adding another $600 billion in security cuts to the $489 billion Congress has already enacted.” [10/08/11]

Then: “Congressman Forbes believes there is a simple truth when it comes to job creation in America: real solutions create real growth that generates real jobs. In order to make this happen, government needs to get out of the way.” [Forbes' website]

AdamT · Jul 19, 2012

Re: Obama to business owners: "You didn't build that."

I know that you recognize a lot of people help you in a business. Perhaps the bank, the investors. There is no question your mom and dad, your school teachers. The people who provide roads, the fire, the police. A lot of people help.

~ Mitt Romney

Moot · Jul 19, 2012

Re: Obama to business owners: "You didn't build that."

Furiounova said:
We need an economic structure not centered entirely on currency. There must be a way to create a system that doesn't punish people who don't want to earn a million dollars and also not punish people who do. A system with a baseline for housing, food, medical care, etc would hold people accountable to society because those items would be provided as long as people are working. The job doesn't matter. A system like that would eliminate much of the money used for welfare and would not hinder capitalism for those who seek it.

In short, there has to be a way to combine socialism and capitalism where the benefits of both are harnessed and the pitfalls of both are avoided.

I think we used to have such a structure in the US, it was called "regulation" and it worked pretty good for about 60 or 70 years until a few CEOs systematically started to dismantle that structure by lobbying politicians to deregulate.

Henrin · Jul 19, 2012

Re: Obama to business owners: "You didn't build that."

Moot said:
I think we used to have such a structure in the US, it was called "regulation" and it worked pretty good for about 60 or 70 years until a few CEOs systematically started to dismantle that structure by lobbying politicians to deregulate.

He is describing nothing short of a very advanced planned economy that mixes a few different strands of socialism together with capitalism. Today we have about what he wants give or take a few measures in his post. He acts like it would be a fundamental change in path but its basically just continuing the road we are on and expecting a different result.

washunut · Jul 19, 2012

Re: Obama to business owners: "You didn't build that."

Phys251 said:
What in the name of God is all this retarded outrage over?? Why does the Far Right get their panties in a wad whenever the president speaks with brutal honesty? Are they so married to their ideal that rich people magically get to where they are and stay where they are, all on their own? Puh-lease! Do you think for one minute that he's actually wrong here? Do you think that America's hierarchical status could survive for one second if we were nothing but a nation of CEOs? LOL! Our system is built on the backs of the laborers and middle class who enable those people's prosperity in the first place. And to think that merely acknowledging this fact has sent the Far Right into their latest outrage frenzy. Get over it already! It needed to be said, and thank God we have a president willing to say it!

Can we guess from the above that if you are old enough to work, you don't make much?

Neomalthusian · Jul 19, 2012

Re: Obama to business owners: "You didn't build that."

Phys251 said:
What in the name of God is all this retarded outrage over?? Why does the Far Right get their panties in a wad whenever the president speaks with brutal honesty?

It's not brutal honesty to say "no one's success is theirs alone, we ALL helped!" That's not honesty. That's taker mentality. "I deserve a piece because I'm your countryman" sort of sly horse crap. The person who owns a property or business... owns it. He suffers the loss if it devalues. He reaps the gain if it appreciates. And any help he needs in keeping it up, HE HAS TO PAY FOR. It's called private ownership, whereas BHO's power is derived from attracting the majority who are non-owners (and hence the majority have become parasitic in their mentalities), and giving the minority (who are owners) a heads up that their pound of flesh will soon be due. The makers must sacrifice themselves for the takers.

Are they so married to their ideal that rich people magically get to where they are and stay where they are, all on their own?

No one claims they never had help. But they did PAY IN FULL for the help they needed. What they owe to the help they received has already been paid for, contract completed, deal is done.

Do you think for one minute that he's actually wrong here?

He's being Machiavellian and rallying his parasitic base, inducing their saliva at the thought of sending collectors out to gather from those with means what the takers feel is owed to them.

Do you think that America's hierarchical status could survive for one second if we were nothing but a nation of CEOs?

What in TF are you talking about?

AdamT · Jul 19, 2012

Re: Obama to business owners: "You didn't build that."

Neomalthusian said:
It's not brutal honesty to say "no one's success is theirs alone, we ALL helped!" That's not honesty. That's taker mentality. "I deserve a piece because I'm your countryman" sort of sly horse crap. The person who owns a property or business... owns it. He suffers the loss if it devalues. He reaps the gain if it appreciates. And any help he needs in keeping it up, HE HAS TO PAY FOR. It's called private ownership, whereas BHO's power is derived from attracting the majority who are non-owners (and hence the majority have become parasitic in their mentalities), and giving the minority (who are owners) a heads up that their pound of flesh will soon be due. The makers must sacrifice themselves for the takers.

No one claims they never had help. But they did PAY IN FULL for the help they needed. What they owe to the help they received has already been paid for, contract completed, deal is done.

He's being Machiavellian and rallying his parasitic base, inducing their saliva at the thought of sending collectors out to gather from those with means what the takers feel is owed to them.

What in TF are you talking about?

Did you slip and hit your head on the bathtub? Here is what he said: "The point is, is that when we succeed, we succeed because of our individual initiative, but also because we do things together."

That doesn't mean that's he's coming for your women, or that the moon is made of green cheese.

Neomalthusian · Jul 19, 2012

Re: Obama to business owners: "You didn't build that."

AdamT said:
Did you slip and hit your head on the bathtub? Here is what he said: "The point is, is that when we succeed, we succeed because of our individual initiative, but also because we do things together."

That doesn't mean that's he's coming for your women, or that the moon is made of green cheese.

Nice appeal to mockery. Really, it's clever, and I mean that in a genuine way. But to the issue...

What is the point in reminding the owners of business and property that not everything they own came into existence solely because of them? Everyone knows this. There was never any question about it. So why, as the person with the most influential job on the planet, should he spend his time reminding us of something we all already know without even having to think, and knew as early as infancy (when we learned the concept of "mine")?

[edit]Best case scenario, he's wasting his time and ours. But honestly I believe there is a definite purpose to telling us these little fables, and I have explained what I think that purpose is in previous posts.

Moot · Jul 19, 2012

Re: Obama to business owners: "You didn't build that."

Henrin said:
He is describing nothing short of a very advanced planned economy that mixes a few different strands of socialism together with capitalism. Today we have about what he wants give or take a few measures in his post. He acts like it would be a fundamental change in path but its basically just continuing the road we are on and expecting a different result.

But something has changed in the last couple of decades and I think it's the way we do business in that we don't make things of value like they used to, instead we're becoming a nation of cubicles and paper shufflers. You can see it on this chart what we are losing and the direction we are heading.....

haymarket · Jul 19, 2012

Re: Obama to business owners: "You didn't build that."

Moot said:
Is "specious" your new word of the day? You obviously have a feckless understanding of both the left and the right.

It certainly seems to be. Maybe it was the LETS LEARN A NEW WORD TODAY in the local paper?

The dictionary says this about the definition of specious

Superficially plausible, but actually wrong: "a specious argument".

It seems the perfect catch-all doesn't it? Its a lazy persons way of saying "sure, your argument sounds good and it could be true and sounds true, but it is wrong just the same."

Of course, the poster would then need to actually engage in debate by PROVING with VERIFIABLE EVIDENCE that the argument is wrong despite its positive and believable appearance but that step is normally sorely lacking and absent. That part seems to be forgotten. In the post your cited, - #373 - the poster merely pompously proclaims the post they disagree with as specious and then fails to do anything with the charge. In others, they make the proclamation and then fail to prove the allegation instead going to the usual attacks about dependency, teat suckers, obeying ones masters and not being able to vote since you do not pay enough taxes.

TurtleDude · Jul 19, 2012

Re: Obama to business owners: "You didn't build that."

Moot said:
Is "specious" your new word of the day? You obviously have a feckless understanding of both the left and the right.

No, I understand the right very well. you do not. Less government and less control is the major characteristic we note when speaking on economic issues of left versus right.

TurtleDude · Jul 19, 2012

Re: Obama to business owners: "You didn't build that."

washunut said:
Can we guess from the above that if you are old enough to work, you don't make much?

those who think Obama was right generally are not those who have achieved at high levels.

Trinnity · Jul 19, 2012

Re: Obama to business owners: "You didn't build that."

POTUS went off TOTUS. Ooops!!!

This was the real Barack Obama....a goof up who can't function without the help of professionals.

Obama to business owners: "You didn't build that." [W:417]

whysoserious

Moot

washunut

whysoserious

Moot

washunut

radcen

Phonetic Mnemonic ©

whysoserious

Furiounova

Henrin

washunut

Phys251

Purge evil with Justice

AdamT

AdamT

Moot

Henrin

washunut

Neomalthusian

AdamT

Neomalthusian

Moot

haymarket

TurtleDude

warrior of the wetlands

TurtleDude

warrior of the wetlands

Trinnity

Obama to business owners: "You didn't build that." [W:417]

Phonetic Mnemonic ©

Purge evil with Justice

warrior of the wetlands

warrior of the wetlands

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