Obama: Netanyahu's Palestine stance erodes Israel's credibility[W:57]

[justabubba]

http://www.todayonline.com/world/obama-netanyahu-stance-palestine-endangers-israels-credibility

U.S. President Barack Obama said Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's terms for diplomacy that might lead to a Palestinian state meant Israel had lost international credibility as a potential peacemaker.
Obama also suggested that continued U.S. diplomatic defense for Israel at the United Nations over the Palestine dispute may be reviewed, while reaffirming U.S. support for Israeli security in a conflict-riven Middle East. ...
Obama said Netanyahu's position "has so many caveats, so many conditions that it is not realistic to think that those conditions would be met at any time in the near future.
"So the danger is that Israel as a whole loses credibility. Already, the international community does not believe that Israel is serious about a two-state solution."...

[emphasis added by bubba]
Obama appears to be exposing the stick he might use in response to bibi's intransigence: refusing to undercut future Palestinian statehood efforts in the UN

the cynic in me wonders whether this is truly a possibility
or
is Obama motivating AIPAC to open its wallet further for the upcoming national elections

 

[Gina]

Re: Obama: Netanyahu's Palestine stance erodes Israel's credibility

Moderator's Warning:

Needs to be in the I/P forum. Moving.

 

[Cardinal]

Re: Obama: Netanyahu's Palestine stance erodes Israel's credibility

http://www.todayonline.com/world/obama-netanyahu-stance-palestine-endangers-israels-credibility

[emphasis added by bubba]
Obama appears to be exposing the stick he might use in response to bibi's intransigence: refusing to undercut future Palestinian statehood efforts in the UN

the cynic in me wonders whether this is truly a possibility
or
is Obama motivating AIPAC to open its wallet further for the upcoming national elections

Netanyahu should not in any way suggest that the two state solution isn't a means to the end of the conflict. But Obama's rhetoric also continues a long standing tradition of implying that there's only one intransigent party, and that implies that the conflict doesn't have two ultimate goals: the end of the occupation, and the full official recognition of a Jewish state.

 

[justabubba]

Re: Obama: Netanyahu's Palestine stance erodes Israel's credibility

Netanyahu should not in any way suggest that the two state solution isn't a means to the end of the conflict. But Obama's rhetoric also continues a long standing tradition of implying that there's only one intransigent party, and that implies that the conflict doesn't have two ultimate goals: the end of the occupation, and the full official recognition of a Jewish state.

the sovereign nation of israel has already been recognized
including by the Palestinian representatives

hopefully, Obama is seeking to balance the other side of that equation

 

[Cardinal]

Re: Obama: Netanyahu's Palestine stance erodes Israel's credibility

the sovereign nation of israel has already been recognized
including by the Palestinian representatives

hopefully, Obama is seeking to balance the other side of that equation

Is this an official position or is it "a thing some guy said once?"

 

[justabubba]

Re: Obama: Netanyahu's Palestine stance erodes Israel's credibility

Is this an official position or is it "a thing some guy said once?"

in 1993
please read this, it expands on it and is quite instructive:
History & Overview of Israel-Palestinian Negotiations | Jewish Virtual Library

 

[Cardinal]

Re: Obama: Netanyahu's Palestine stance erodes Israel's credibility

in 1993
please read this, it expands on it and is quite instructive:
History & Overview of Israel-Palestinian Negotiations | Jewish Virtual Library

Okay, so you're going off something from 1993. That is not an official position today, and in fact here is something from last November:

Palestinians will never recognize Israel as a Jewish state, President Mahmoud Abbas said at an emergency session of the Arab League, hot on the heels of PM Benjamin Netanyahu’s approving the disputed bill to enshrine Israel’s status as such.

Speaking to leaders of the Arab world in Cairo, the Palestinian leader stated: “We will never recognize the Jewishness of the state of Israel.”

?Palestine will not recognize Israel as Jewish state? ? Abbas after Israeli legal push ? RT News

There is, today, no official position recognizing Israel as its own sovereign Jewish state.

 

[mbig]

Re: Obama: Netanyahu's Palestine stance erodes Israel's credibility

Is this an official position or is it "a thing some guy said once?"

in 1993
please read this, it expands on it and is quite instructive:
History & Overview of Israel-Palestinian Negotiations | Jewish Virtual Library

http://www.debatepolitics.com/middl...gnized-israel-jewish-state-nor-state-all.html

There seems to be alot of confusion over the PLO/PA's position re recognizing Israel.
Despite promising to Amend their Charter in 1993 to do so, and subsequently making many noises like that since, they Never did.

Palestinian National Covenant - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Israeli views

Although the PNC met in Gaza on 24 April 1996, it did Not revoke or change the covenant, but only issued a statement saying that it had become aged, and that an undefined part of it would be rewritten at an undetermined date in the future. While the English language press release stated that the PLO Covenant was "hereby amended", the Arabic version of Yassir Arafat's letter on this declaration stated:

It has been decided upon: 1. Changing the Palestine National Charter by canceling the articles that are contrary to the letters exchanged between the PLO and the Government of Israel, on 9/10 September 1993. 2. The PNC will appoint a legal committee with the task of redrafting the National Charter. The Charter will be presented to the first meeting of the Central Council.​

The New York Times and others quoted similarly language (the ambiguous phrase decides to amend is quoted instead of hereby amended):

Formally, the resolution adopted by the council consisted of two simple clauses. The first declared that the council "decides to amend the Palestinian National Covenant by canceling clauses which contradict the letters exchanged between the P.L.O. and the Israeli Government." The second ordered a new charter to be drafted within six months.[27]​

"Peace Watch", an Israeli organization declaring itself to be "an apolitical, independent Israeli organization monitoring bilateral compliance with the Israel-PLO accords"[28] issued the following statement:

And AFAIK that's where we still stand.
Should someone 'defeat' Israel, Abbas & co could still deny they ever recognized it.
Anyone want to post any new info that isn't just some more noise for public consumption, it would be welcome.

It's possible, of course, the first time Israel will be legally/officially recognized by the PA is when/if they ever sign a final peace agreement.
It's Not really a necessity prior.

 

[Cardinal]

Re: Obama: Netanyahu's Palestine stance erodes Israel's credibility

http://www.debatepolitics.com/middl...gnized-israel-jewish-state-nor-state-all.html

There seems to be alot of confusion over the PLO/PA's position re recognizing Israel.
Despite promising to Amend their Charter in 1993 to do so, and subsequently making many noises like that since, they Never did.

Palestinian National Covenant - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


And AFAIK that's where we still stand.
Should someone 'defeat' Israel, Abbas & co could still deny they ever recognized it.
Anyone want to post any new info that isn't just some more noise for public consumption, it would be welcome.

It's possible, of course, the first time Israel will be legally/officially recognized by the PA is when/if they ever sign a final peace agreement.
It's Not really a necessity prior.

It's untenable to agree to a Jewish state only if a peace agreement is signed first. The recognition of Israel and the end of the occupation are joined at the hip -- they are the mutual goals that define a peace treaty. Otherwise, Israel is potentially just agreeing to give Palestinians more land to attack them from.

 

[justabubba]

Re: Obama: Netanyahu's Palestine stance erodes Israel's credibility

Okay, so you're going off something from 1993. That is not an official position today, and in fact here is something from last November:



?Palestine will not recognize Israel as Jewish state? ? Abbas after Israeli legal push ? RT News

There is, today, no official position recognizing Israel as its own sovereign Jewish state.

nobody recognizes israel as a JEWISH state
as a sovereign state, it decides for itself what it is

in 1993, the PLO, recognized by israel (despite the '72 olympics) to be the representative of the Palestinian people, recognized the nation of israel to be a valid entity. just as the US and UN did in '47 (i think that was the year)

 

[justabubba]

Re: Obama: Netanyahu's Palestine stance erodes Israel's credibility

It's untenable to agree to a Jewish state only if a peace agreement is signed first. The recognition of Israel and the end of the occupation are joined at the hip -- they are the mutual goals that define a peace treaty. Otherwise, Israel is potentially just agreeing to give Palestinians more land to attack them from.

israel has already been recognized by the officially recognized (by israel) Palestinian representatives
which leaves us with the recognition of Palestine by israel to occur as well as the end of the occupation of lands the UN does not recognize to be israel

 

[Cardinal]

Re: Obama: Netanyahu's Palestine stance erodes Israel's credibility

israel has already been recognized by the officially recognized (by israel) Palestinian representatives
which leaves us with the recognition of Palestine by israel to occur as well as the end of the occupation of lands the UN does not recognize to be israel

In 2013 Hamas Prime Minister Ismail Haniyeh reiterated that the Palestinian Arabs as a whole will never recognize Israel's right to exist, and certainly not to exist as the Jewish state, by saying: "We had two wars...but Palestinians did not and will not recognize Israel".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_to_exist#Israel

Your 1993 source is laughably obsolete and defunct.

 

[justabubba]

Re: Obama: Netanyahu's Palestine stance erodes Israel's credibility

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_to_exist#Israel

Your 1993 source is laughably obsolete and defunct.

it's official policy by the officially recognized representatives of the Palestinian people

 

[Cardinal]

Re: Obama: Netanyahu's Palestine stance erodes Israel's credibility

it's official policy by the officially recognized representatives of the Palestinian people

It's also official US policy that women are not allowed to vote. In 1880. Your 1993 document is worth less than the cost of the bandwidth that's maintaining that web page.

 

[justabubba]

Re: Obama: Netanyahu's Palestine stance erodes Israel's credibility

It's also official US policy that women are not allowed to vote. In 1880. Your 1993 document is worth less than the cost of the bandwidth that's maintaining that web page.

it is not as if international agreements have an expiration date or are subject to annual renewal
but hope Obama is willing to support the Palestinian cause in the UN going forward
1. to provide the Palestinian people with the statehood they deserve
and
2. to piss bibi off royally

 

[Cardinal]

Re: Obama: Netanyahu's Palestine stance erodes Israel's credibility

it is not as if international agreements have an expiration date or are subject to annual renewal

By your logic, Netanyahu, Shalom and anybody else in the Israeli government can come out and say that they oppose a Palestinian state under any circumstances, but because the two state solution was an official policy last month then that is the official policy now. Good thinkin.'

but hope Obama is willing to support the Palestinian cause in the UN going forward
1. to provide the Palestinian people with the statehood they deserve
and
2. to piss bibi off royally

While I am always willing to admit a bias in favor of Israel, I also acknowledge that unless each side gets the full needs of their security and autonomy met then peace isn't viable. Your main prerogative is to "piss off" a side "royally." Your position and approach are immature and non-conducive to approaching the conflict in a serious manner.

 

[ido_]

Re: Obama: Netanyahu's Palestine stance erodes Israel's credibility

the sovereign nation of israel has already been recognized
including by the Palestinian representatives

hopefully, Obama is seeking to balance the other side of that equation

Obama also said in that interview that Palestinians need to recognize Israel as the Jewish homeland

 

[ido_]

Re: Obama: Netanyahu's Palestine stance erodes Israel's credibility

it's official policy by the officially recognized representatives of the Palestinian people

if its the official policy, how come they teach their children they have claim on Israel ?
PA TV Children

 

[LeoVlaming]

Re: Obama: Netanyahu's Palestine stance erodes Israel's credibility

Since Obama has lost all credibility, I guess he is an expert.

 

[justabubba]

Re: Obama: Netanyahu's Palestine stance erodes Israel's credibility

if its the official policy, how come they teach their children they have claim on Israel ?
PA TV Children

why does bibi say he is uninterested in a two-state solution: the official position of israel

 

[Cardinal]

Re: Obama: Netanyahu's Palestine stance erodes Israel's credibility

why does bibi say he is uninterested in a two-state solution: the official position of israel

Netanyahu supports a two state solution.

JERUSALEM, June 14 -- Israeli Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu said Sunday that he is willing to support the creation of a Palestinian state, for the first time making a commitment that the United States, Europe and the Arab nations have pushed for since he took office.

Israel's Netanyahu Endorses Creation of Palestinian State but Attaches Conditions

 

[justabubba]

Re: Obama: Netanyahu's Palestine stance erodes Israel's credibility

Netanyahu supports a two state solution.

JERUSALEM, June 14 -- Israeli Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu said Sunday that he is willing to support the creation of a Palestinian state, for the first time making a commitment that the United States, Europe and the Arab nations have pushed for since he took office.

Israel's Netanyahu Endorses Creation of Palestinian State but Attaches Conditions

On the final day of his reelection campaign, Benjamin Netanyahu said that as long as he serves as prime minister of Israel, there will not be an independent Palestinian nation.

[emphasis added by bubba]
Netanyahu says no Palestinian state if he wins - The Washington Post

appears this is why Obama no longer finds there to be a process that can be pointed at to justify delaying the establishment of a Palestinian state by other than negotiation with israel

 

[Sadling]

Re: Obama: Netanyahu's Palestine stance erodes Israel's credibility

Netanyahu supports a two state solution.

JERUSALEM, June 14 -- Israeli Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu said Sunday that he is willing to support the creation of a Palestinian state, for the first time making a commitment that the United States, Europe and the Arab nations have pushed for since he took office.

Israel's Netanyahu Endorses Creation of Palestinian State but Attaches Conditions

You linked to information that is six years old. Also, what were the attached conditions?

 

[Cardinal]

Re: Obama: Netanyahu's Palestine stance erodes Israel's credibility

[emphasis added by bubba]
Netanyahu says no Palestinian state if he wins - The Washington Post

appears this is why Obama no longer finds there to be a process that can be pointed at to justify delaying the establishment of a Palestinian state by other than negotiation with israel

I don’t want a one-state solution. I want a sustainable, peaceful two-state solution.

Netanyahu: I Support Two-State Solution, But 'Circumstances Have to Change

No other information need be considered. I'm using your own logic, just in case it sounds familiar to you.

 

[Cardinal]

Re: Obama: Netanyahu's Palestine stance erodes Israel's credibility

You linked to information that is six years old. Also, what were the attached conditions?

Exactly. It's six years old. However, using Justabubba's mode of reasoning, if a thing was said or believed even once, however absurdly long ago, and no matter how many times it's contradicted in the present, it's believed for all perpetuity.