NTSB: No alert for train crew until just before derailment

[Moon]

EAST PALESTINE, Ohio (AP) — The crew operating a freight train that derailed in East Palestine, Ohio, did not receive a critical warning about an overheated axle until just before dozens of cars went off the tracks, federal safety investigators said in a report Thursday as U.S. Transportation Secretary Pete Buttigieg made his first visit to the crash site.

An engineer slowed and stopped the train after getting a “critical audible alarm message,” according to a preliminary report by the National Transportation Safety Board. The crew then saw fire and smoke and alerted dispatch of a possible derailment, the report said.

The axle investigators are focused on had been heating up as the train went down the tracks, but did not reach the threshold for stopping the train and inspecting it until just before the derailment, the report said. The train was going about 47 mph (75 kph) at the time, just under the speed limit of 50 mph (80 kph), according to safety investigators.


Ohio Republican Lt. Gov. Jon Husted told CNN ahead of the report’s release that its findings had the potential to form the basis of a criminal referral from the state. He also said railroad company Norfolk Southern should temporarily relocate people who continue to feel unsafe, or even consider buying their property.

Train crew had little warning before Ohio wreck, probe finds

The crew operating a freight train that derailed in East Palestine, Ohio, didn’t get much warning before dozens of cars went off the tracks, and there is no indication that crew members did anything wrong.

apnews.com

According to the NTSB preliminary report, the first alert the crew received showed the heat level at 38 degrees above ambient, the 2nd alert showed 103 degrees above ambient and the third alert showed 253 degrees above ambient. It’s about 30 miles between the first and third detector.

No information yet on what might have caused the axle to heat up.

 

[Integrityrespec]

EAST PALESTINE, Ohio (AP) — The crew operating a freight train that derailed in East Palestine, Ohio, did not receive a critical warning about an overheated axle until just before dozens of cars went off the tracks, federal safety investigators said in a report Thursday as U.S. Transportation Secretary Pete Buttigieg made his first visit to the crash site.

An engineer slowed and stopped the train after getting a “critical audible alarm message,” according to a preliminary report by the National Transportation Safety Board. The crew then saw fire and smoke and alerted dispatch of a possible derailment, the report said.

The axle investigators are focused on had been heating up as the train went down the tracks, but did not reach the threshold for stopping the train and inspecting it until just before the derailment, the report said. The train was going about 47 mph (75 kph) at the time, just under the speed limit of 50 mph (80 kph), according to safety investigators.


Ohio Republican Lt. Gov. Jon Husted told CNN ahead of the report’s release that its findings had the potential to form the basis of a criminal referral from the state. He also said railroad company Norfolk Southern should temporarily relocate people who continue to feel unsafe, or even consider buying their property.

Train crew had little warning before Ohio wreck, probe finds

The crew operating a freight train that derailed in East Palestine, Ohio, didn’t get much warning before dozens of cars went off the tracks, and there is no indication that crew members did anything wrong.

apnews.com

According to the NTSB preliminary report, the first alert the crew received showed the heat level at 38 degrees above ambient, the 2nd alert showed 103 degrees above ambient and the third alert showed 253 degrees above ambient. It’s about 30 miles between the first and third detector.

No information yet on what might have caused the axle to heat up.

Was it overloaded, traveling too fast, failed to pass the last safety check, anything like that?

 

[Moon]

Was it overloaded, traveling too fast, failed to pass the last safety check, anything like that?

According to the report, the train was traveling about 47 mph in a 50 mph zone. No mention of it being overloaded. It had 149 cars and 3 locomotives.

 

[Moot]

It was disaster waiting to happen and the blame belongs squarely on the railroad.

 

[Helix]

149 cars and three engines seems like a lot.

 

[Moon]

149 cars and three engines seems like a lot.

Apparently there’s no limit to the length a train can be, and the average length has been increasing over the years. I saw a reference to one train with 295 cars. Wouldn’t surprise me if that’s one aspect of the investigation that’s addressed by the NTSB.

 

[OrphanSlug]

Too much missing from this story.

 

[Moon]

It was disaster waiting to happen and the blame belongs squarely on the railroad.

Perhaps, we’ll know when the NTSB concludes their investigation.

 

[Moon]

Too much missing from this story.

It’s a preliminary report, so it’s not going to have all of the pieces yet.

 

[The AntiDonald]

149 cars and three engines seems like a lot.

Seems like a lot to me too. If a rail car has a temp sensor at each bearing location, that would be 8 sensors per car that would have to be electrically connected to a warning system in one or all of the engines. That's a whole lot of possible failures that can happen.

That's 1192 temp sensors. Without rigorous inspection and testing, how can anyone guarantee that the warning systems are all working properly. Even with the information we have, I am still unsure how one overheated axel on one car can derail the train unless it destroyed itself and came apart. Which means the engineer should have stopped that train the first time he had an indication of overheating.

Unfortunately, NTSB investigations sometimes take years to complete. Meanwhile, there are thousands of trains running all across America with ticking time bombs just waiting to happen.

The rules have to be tightened up. We're just lucky with this one that no person was seriously injured during the accident.

 

[Moon]

Seems like a lot to me too. If a rail car has a temp sensor at each bearing location, that would be 8 sensors per car that would have to be electrically connected to a warning system in one or all of the engines. That's a whole lot of possible failures that can happen.

That's 1192 temp sensors. Without rigorous inspection and testing, how can anyone guarantee that the warning systems are all working properly. Even with the information we have, I am still unsure how one overheated axel on one car can derail the train unless it destroyed itself and came apart. Which means the engineer should have stopped that train the first time he had an indication of overheating.

Unfortunately, NTSB investigations sometimes take years to complete. Meanwhile, there are thousands of trains running all across America with ticking time bombs just waiting to happen.

The rules have to be tightened up. We're just lucky with this one that no person was seriously injured during the accident.

The temp sensors are actually part of the tracks, not installed on the cars.

 

[The AntiDonald]

The temp sensors are actually part of the tracks, not installed on the cars.

Really? Well, how in the hell can they read the temp of an internal bearing that's moving across a track at 50 or so MPH? And if they actually do that, how would the engineer know what car was in trouble. Doesn't sound like a very accurate warning system.

I stand corrected. We learn something new every day.

 

[ApersonLIKEallOFyou]

Really? Well, how in the hell can they read the temp of an internal bearing that's moving across a track at 50 or so MPH? And if they actually do that, how would the engineer know what car was in trouble. Doesn't sound like a very accurate warning system.

I stand corrected. We learn something new every day.

Trackside inspection systems detect the external temperature of the bearings on every car that passes, as well as some other things. Typically the alert would tell the crew which axle was in trouble, with axle 1 being the first axle on the locomotive and so on. The length and tonnage of this train likely had no impact, other than it makes for a bigger derailment.

 

[ApersonLIKEallOFyou]

149 cars and three engines seems like a lot.

Pretty standard depending on the tonnage of the cars.

 

[ApersonLIKEallOFyou]

It was disaster waiting to happen and the blame belongs squarely on the railroad.

How so?

 

[coyote505]

Apparently there’s no limit to the length a train can be, and the average length has been increasing over the years. I saw a reference to one train with 295 cars. Wouldn’t surprise me if that’s one aspect of the investigation that’s addressed by the NTSB.

The only thing apparently limiting the length of a train at present is state or local limits on how long it can block a crossing. Of course, if there are no grade crossings, that would not apply.

From recent internet reading, it appears that European trains have both much smaller cars, and more axles per car. American train cars seem to have gotten bigger and bigger over the last 50 years. Not sure at what point they exceed the capacity of the bearings, but it has to be getting close.

Having alerts set to degrees above ambient may make it easier for the sensors, but if this axle had been 253F over summertime temperatures, it would have been about 350F. Very few lubricants can work at those temperatures, and probably none that a RR would spring for the cost of. 100F above ambient should have been sufficient to stop the train, as it showed a growing overheating problem likely to rapidly get worse.

RRs are probably being cut way too much slack in the way they load and maintain their trains.

 

[Moon]

The only thing apparently limiting the length of a train at present is state or local limits on how long it can block a crossing. Of course, if there are no grade crossings, that would not apply.

From recent internet reading, it appears that European trains have both much smaller cars, and more axles per car. American train cars seem to have gotten bigger and bigger over the last 50 years. Not sure at what point they exceed the capacity of the bearings, but it has to be getting close.

Having alerts set to degrees above ambient may make it easier for the sensors, but if this axle had been 253F over summertime temperatures, it would have been about 350F. Very few lubricants can work at those temperatures, and probably none that a RR would spring for the cost of. 100F above ambient should have been sufficient to stop the train, as it showed a growing overheating problem likely to rapidly get worse.

RRs are probably being cut way too much slack in the way they load and maintain their trains.

According to the report, Norfolk Southern’s procedure is to stop the train if the Hot Bearing Detector senses a temperature between 170 and 200 degrees above ambient. They didn’t reach that level until they passed the third detector and stopped the train, but by then it was too late.

 

[ApersonLIKEallOFyou]

The only thing apparently limiting the length of a train at present is state or local limits on how long it can block a crossing. Of course, if there are no grade crossings, that would not apply.

From recent internet reading, it appears that European trains have both much smaller cars, and more axles per car. American train cars seem to have gotten bigger and bigger over the last 50 years. Not sure at what point they exceed the capacity of the bearings, but it has to be getting close.

Having alerts set to degrees above ambient may make it easier for the sensors, but if this axle had been 253F over summertime temperatures, it would have been about 350F. Very few lubricants can work at those temperatures, and probably none that a RR would spring for the cost of. 100F above ambient should have been sufficient to stop the train, as it showed a growing overheating problem likely to rapidly get worse.

RRs are probably being cut way too much slack in the way they load and maintain their trains.

I'm not sure the length or tonnage of the train puts added stress on a wheel bearing, but I'd have to dive into those physics. My initial thought is that it's simply rotational force that would generate excess friction in the event there is an issue with the lubricant. So if anything the speed is the issue, not the length of the train.

 

[Taylor]

Sounds like an earlier warning system might be the best way to address the issue.

 

[ApersonLIKEallOFyou]

According to the report, Norfolk Southern’s procedure is to stop the train if the Hot Bearing Detector senses a temperature between 170 and 200 degrees above ambient. They didn’t reach that level until they passed the third detector and stopped the train, but by then it was too late.

This is what this whole thing will come down to and these are the procedures that will be changed. Very easy for the NTSB to now say this was 100% preventable but I would hope they aren't going to pretend they weren't aware of the procedures that were in place.

 

[CaughtInThe]

the decision on how to address this failure should be left up to the railroad (private) company.

government has no business getting involved.

 

[Moot]

How so?

Well, for starters, the size of the crew, the length and weight the train, and the railroads policy of ignoring safety protocols....

Timeline of the East Palestine train derailment disaster and aftermath

A timeline of the derailment in East Palestine of a Norfolk Southern train carrying toxic chemicals on Feb. 3, and the aftermath for the community and surrounding area.

www.news5cleveland.com

 

[ApersonLIKEallOFyou]

Well, for starters, the size of the crew, the length and weight the train, and the railroads policy of ignoring safety protocols....

Timeline of the East Palestine train derailment disaster and aftermath

A timeline of the derailment in East Palestine of a Norfolk Southern train carrying toxic chemicals on Feb. 3, and the aftermath for the community and surrounding area.

www.news5cleveland.com

The length and weight most likely had nothing to do with this. A bearing failure could derail a train with one car just as easily as one with 150 cars. I'm not sure why the size of the crew matters. Obviously the response will be looked at, but as far as the root cause I suspect they were operating within *known" safety protocols. Emphasis on "known" because I see some of the phrasing coming from the NTSB and I am not digging that.

 

[Moot]

The length and weight most likely had nothing to do with this. A bearing failure could derail a train with one car just as easily as one with 150 cars. I'm not sure why the size of the crew matters. Obviously the response will be looked at, but as far as the root cause I suspect they were operating within *known" safety protocols. Emphasis on "known" because I see some of the phrasing coming from the NTSB and I am not digging that.

From what I've read the RR was cutting corners at every turn. So lets just wait for the NTSB report

 

[Slartibartfast]

I'm not sure the length or tonnage of the train puts added stress on a wheel bearing, but I'd have to dive into those physics. My initial thought is that it's simply rotational force that would generate excess friction in the event there is an issue with the lubricant. So if anything the speed is the issue, not the length of the train.

Longer trains = bigger potential crash if something goes wrong.