No Indictment in Chokehold Death [W:1903,2680]

vesper · Dec 5, 2014

Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

Visbek said:
The issue isn't whether there was a reason to detain him.

The issue is that the officers used excessive force, including a choke hold banned precisely to avoid this kind of outcome, to detain Garner; and that the officer was given a free pass by the criminal justice system.

Yet again, the cigarette law was merely coincidental to the situation. As I posted earlier, on Nov 22, a 20 year old man named Donovan Lawson illegally jumped a turnstile in the NYC subway. During the arrest, Donovan was beaten on the head with a baton by an arresting officer. Even if you believe that the officer's use of force on Donovan was fully justified, the fact still remains that the type or nature of the offense is not what results in an escalation of the use of force by the officers.

NYPD officer smashes alleged fare beater in head with baton - NY Daily News

You may want to hold off on that "chokehold" ban business. Apparently the Chief of Police Bratton, is backing away from it.

"Bratton also backtracked on his initial assessment that cellphone video showed Pantaleo applying a banned chokehold, telling CNN, “I’ve been around a long time in this business. What appears to be sometimes may not be what it is.”
Police fury at mayor’s racial smear | New York Post

And from the same article it states that "A judge granted Staten Island DA Dan Donovan’s request to unseal information about the grand jury proceedings, including that the panel heard from 50 witnesses, watched four videos and was told how much force cops can legally use in arrests."

CanadaJohn · Dec 5, 2014

Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

ReverendHellh0und said:
Can you cite the specific city or state code that makes selling loosies a crime?

More than that. diblasio instructed the police commissioner to crack down on it. now that he has, diblasio throws him under the bus.

He should simply walk into the hudson imo.

The New York City Council - File #: Int 1021-2013

Go to legislation text then start at page 8 of the text to find the prohibitions.

VanceMack · Dec 5, 2014

Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

Grant said:
He seemed to be doing all right before the cop jumped him from behind, applied a choke hold, and knocked him to the sidewalk. I doubt the family will be suing MacDonalds for wrongful death..
It's hard to escape the video evidence.

Going against what the police have to say is not likely to be 'self-serving'. He could just as easily have additional problems.

The video is VERY telling. The police officer grabbed him from behind in a poorly locked in choke hold for 8 seconds until the man was on the ground. The hold was then released and he was held on the ground while being cuffed. He was not shouting "I cant breathe" while the 'choke hold' was applied but while he was on the ground. Thats far more indicative of a heart attack than anything else but what is certain is that it was NOT caused by a choke hold.

The fallback position is "the police caused his death". That is not correct. He decided to be combative with law enforcement and that had the EXACT SAME result it will have in ANY situation involving ANYONE. Law enforcement will win. You and everyone here arguing against the police KNOW that to be fact. NONE of you are stupid enough to openly advocate for citizens to physically resist arrest and none of you are stupid enough to actually do it yourself. He did it and you KNOW he did it. Because he did it and because he was 200 pounds overweight, had an enlarged heart, hypertension, weight caused apnea, asthma, and numerous other weight related physical ailments, when he went down he had a heart attack. The cause of death was cardiac arrest which occurred while in the ambulance on the way to the hospital.

ReverendHellh0und · Dec 5, 2014

Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

CanadaJohn said:
The New York City Council - File #: Int 1021-2013

Go to legislation text then start at page 8 of the text to find the prohibitions.

Seems only to apply to retailers..... can you quote the specific text you have in mind?

I see a reference here to a state law.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/05/nyregion/05loosie.html?pagewanted=all

I'm really curious to find it.

Mithros · Dec 5, 2014

Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

jmotivator said:
So that would point to the possibility that cigarettes had nothing to do with the confrontation, or the choice to arrest Garner. It was clearly on the top of Garner's mind when the police approached him but that doesn't mean that Garner wasn't just making incorrect assumptions in his agitated state.

What we know for certain is that the video everyone here is using to discern what happened is critically missing the part of the altercation where the police demeanor changed from folded arms and listening to Garner rant to arresting Garner. Any claim that Garner did nothing to warrant arrest is unfounded because the public simply doesn't have that information, at least not from that video.

It's possible to support police generally, but still admit that there's a pretty good chance that this cop in this situation was way over the line. I firmly believe that police should receive the benefit of the doubt in virtually all situations. After all its a tough job with a ton of stress and not a lot of pay. But this??? We DO have bad cops in the US.

Forget the reasons behind anything, they're irrelevant. Whether or not the police were right or wrong to arrest Garner is an entirely separate question. Was Garner fat? It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter what he had for lunch. It doesn't matter if Garner was a serial killer or a model citizen. It doesn't matter if Garner was a 300lb black man or a 90lb old lady. The police are law enforcement, not administers of justice.

What we have here is a man that was killed during an arrest in which he did not physically resist. I don't care who you are, what party you vote for, or what color your skin is; that is unacceptable and likely a homicide. Imagine this story where the guy killed was a Tea Partier protesting taxes. What if it was an elderly grandmother? Still feel the same way?

You're right to point out that we don't have all of the details. That's the point of a trial. Police officers aren't vigilantes. They aren't the final arbiters of violence. They need to be held accountable just like everyone else.

CanadaJohn · Dec 5, 2014

Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

Hatuey said:
If they're banned from using the procedure, how can they also have the authority to use it? I'll wait for you to figure that out.

The police are authorized to enforce a legal arrest and in so doing may use whatever means are necessary to enforce that arrest. There is no law prohibiting a police officer from using the type of hold displayed in the video. A police officer in NYC may, upon using such a means, be subject to police department disciplinary proceedings and penalties, including potentially dismissal. Adherence to police department procedures may be a condition of employment but may also be waived if the police officer in question can prove or convince those he/she reports to or a disciplinary hearing that the procedure was necessary under the circumstances and use of the procedure was not a blatant disregard of police department objectives but was a necessity of performing their lawful duty.

VanceMack · Dec 5, 2014

Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

dirtpoorchris said:
Here are cops actually earning their paycheck against a total bad ass. Notice no choke hold. or lethal moves.

Surely you have some sort of point to make with that video. Is it "This is what happens to dumbasses that resist arrest"? Or is it "Rather than apply a choke hold, the cops in NYC should have beaten him batons"? Or maybe, "see? Universally...in the US or Poland, when an incident like this occurs cops are trained to swarm the individual until he is detained just like in NY"?

Dittohead not! · Dec 5, 2014

Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

VanceMack said:
The video is VERY telling. The police officer grabbed him from behind in a poorly locked in choke hold for 8 seconds until the man was on the ground. The hold was then released and he was held on the ground while being cuffed. He was not shouting "I cant breathe" while the 'choke hold' was applied but while he was on the ground. Thats far more indicative of a heart attack than anything else but what is certain is that it was NOT caused by a choke hold.

The fallback position is "the police caused his death". That is not correct. He decided to be combative with law enforcement and that had the EXACT SAME result it will have in ANY situation involving ANYONE. Law enforcement will win. You and everyone here arguing against the police KNOW that to be fact. NONE of you are stupid enough to openly advocate for citizens to physically resist arrest and none of you are stupid enough to actually do it yourself. He did it and you KNOW he did it. Because he did it and because he was 200 pounds overweight, had an enlarged heart, hypertension, weight caused apnea, asthma, and numerous other weight related physical ailments, when he went down he had a heart attack. The cause of death was cardiac arrest which occurred while in the ambulance on the way to the hospital.

And the autopsy report?

Did it show he died of a heart attack?

jmotivator · Dec 5, 2014

Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

Mithros said:
It's possible to support police generally, but still admit that there's a pretty good chance that this cop in this situation was way over the line. I firmly believe that police should receive the benefit of the doubt in virtually all situations. After all its a tough job with a ton of stress and not a lot of pay. But this??? We DO have bad cops in the US.

Forget the reasons behind anything, they're irrelevant. Whether or not the police were right or wrong to arrest Garner is an entirely separate question. Was Garner fat? It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter what he had for lunch. It doesn't matter if Garner was a serial killer or a model citizen. It doesn't matter if Garner was a 300lb black man or a 90lb old lady. The police are law enforcement, not administers of justice.

What we have here is a man that was killed during an arrest in which he did not physically resist. I don't care who you are, what party you vote for, or what color your skin is; that is unacceptable and likely a homicide. Imagine this story where the guy killed was a Tea Partier protesting taxes. What if it was an elderly grandmother? Still feel the same way?

You're right to point out that we don't have all of the details. That's the point of a trial. Police officers aren't vigilantes. They aren't the final arbiters of violence. They need to be held accountable just like everyone else.

I believe police officers should be held accountable as well. IN fact these police officers WERE held accountable. What pisses everyone off was that after 9 weeks of careful deliberation it was found that their was no law broken. Everyone has been stirred into a demand for justice on an incomplete video they believe shows things it demonstrably doesn't.

While I agree with your approach in theory I can't help but come to the conclusion that a lot of people, in an effort to fight back against police vigilantism have become vigilantes themselves.

vesper · Dec 5, 2014

Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

Gaius46 said:
Emphasis on the word contributing. The coroner called the primary causes neck and chest compression. That makes your statement factually incorrect.

But one also has to weigh the amount of pressure that was applied. Garner did not die of asphyxiation, and the preliminary autopsy showed no damage to Garner’s windpipe or neck bones. However, a man in such poor health with acute asthma, heart disease, diabetes, and obesity it wouldn't take a whole lot of pressure to cut the man's wind off.

CanadaJohn · Dec 5, 2014

Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

ReverendHellh0und said:
Seems only to apply to retailers..... can you quote the specific text you have in mind?

I see a reference here to a state law.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/05/nyregion/05loosie.html?pagewanted=all

I'm really curious to find it.

You won't have a bylaw or legislation that specifically says Eric Garner is prohibited from selling loosies. That's not how laws are written. The bylaw I provided you stipulates that only those licensed by the city to sell cigarettes may sell cigarettes and cigarettes may only be sold in packages of at least 4 and at the legislated price. Everything and anything else related to the sale of cigarettes is thus prohibited and against the law.

Uncensored2008 · Dec 5, 2014

Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

clownboy said:
I suppose the grand jury listened to the coroner when he said this guy was a fat **** a hairsbreath away from the heart attack that killed him. Or did you miss the contributing factors? Tasing the guy would have killed him.

Yet this was nothing more than failure to pay a nuisance tax. It is impossible to deny that excessive force was used for an infraction.

dirtpoorchris · Dec 5, 2014

Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

VanceMack said:
Surely you have some sort of point to make with that video. Is it "This is what happens to dumbasses that resist arrest"? Or is it "Rather than apply a choke hold, the cops in NYC should have beaten him batons"? Or maybe, "see? Universally...in the US or Poland, when an incident like this occurs cops are trained to swarm the individual until he is detained just like in NY"?

Well you see the cops purposely targeting legs instead of the head. Cops in america seem to love to clober the head. Like this guy.

It should be rule of law that officers have to earn their paychecks. Like these guys.

There should be no targeting of the head or neck ever. Unless the criminal targets a cops neck or head. And even then if a old lady or cripple slaps a cop in the face the cop shouldnt get a ticket to slug away.

There seems to be a huge case of "this cop is a ****in *****, eager to prove on weaklings or subdued or ganged up targets" thing here in America going on.

dirtpoorchris · Dec 5, 2014

Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

CanadaJohn said:
You won't have a bylaw or legislation that specifically says Eric Garner is prohibited from selling loosies. That's not how laws are written. The bylaw I provided you stipulates that only those licensed by the city to sell cigarettes may sell cigarettes and cigarettes may only be sold in packages of at least 4 and at the legislated price. Everything and anything else related to the sale of cigarettes is thus prohibited and against the law.

How the **** is that capatalism... Thats price by royal decree.

ReverendHellh0und · Dec 5, 2014

Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

CanadaJohn said:
You won't have a bylaw or legislation that specifically says Eric Garner is prohibited from selling loosies. That's not how laws are written. The bylaw I provided you stipulates that only those licensed by the city to sell cigarettes may sell cigarettes and cigarettes may only be sold in packages of at least 4 and at the legislated price. Everything and anything else related to the sale of cigarettes is thus prohibited and against the law.

What is the punishment/fine? I couldn't find that.

CanadaJohn · Dec 5, 2014

Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

Uncensored2008 said:
Yet this was nothing more than failure to pay a nuisance tax. It is impossible to deny that excessive force was used for an infraction.

I agree with the sentiment that excessive force may have been used, but I sure wish people would stop insinuating that Eric Garner is dead because he didn't collect tax. That's just plainly inane. The police didn't walk up to Eric Garner and say, hey did you collect tax on that sale? No? Bam, you're dead.

dirtpoorchris · Dec 5, 2014

Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

VanceMack said:
The video is VERY telling. The police officer grabbed him from behind in a poorly locked in choke hold for 8 seconds until the man was on the ground. The hold was then released and he was held on the ground while being cuffed. He was not shouting "I cant breathe" while the 'choke hold' was applied but while he was on the ground. Thats far more indicative of a heart attack than anything else but what is certain is that it was NOT caused by a choke hold.

The fallback position is "the police caused his death". That is not correct. He decided to be combative with law enforcement and that had the EXACT SAME result it will have in ANY situation involving ANYONE. Law enforcement will win. You and everyone here arguing against the police KNOW that to be fact. NONE of you are stupid enough to openly advocate for citizens to physically resist arrest and none of you are stupid enough to actually do it yourself. He did it and you KNOW he did it. Because he did it and because he was 200 pounds overweight, had an enlarged heart, hypertension, weight caused apnea, asthma, and numerous other weight related physical ailments, when he went down he had a heart attack. The cause of death was cardiac arrest which occurred while in the ambulance on the way to the hospital.

You know what happens when you block the veins in the neck? Pressure builds up in the heart. To a fat man a choke hold is more lethal than to a skinny man. A choke hold is a lethal tactic.

CanadaJohn · Dec 5, 2014

Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

dirtpoorchris said:
There should be no targeting of the head or neck ever.

No, we want all suspects to remain pretty for their star turns with the media.

Uncensored2008 · Dec 5, 2014

Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

ReverendHellh0und said:
What is the punishment/fine? I couldn't find that.

Apparently, death.

CanadaJohn · Dec 5, 2014

Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

dirtpoorchris said:
How the **** is that capatalism... Thats price by royal decree.

I don't disagree. Ask the people of NYC why they voted in Michael Bloomberg twice under the law and then a third time by waiving the law against serving as mayor for more than two terms. The majority of the people of NYC seemed to accept his highness just fine and many wanted him seated on the White House throne, but a guy from Chicago beat him to it.

ReverendHellh0und · Dec 5, 2014

Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

CanadaJohn said:
I agree with the sentiment that excessive force may have been used, but I sure wish people would stop insinuating that Eric Garner is dead because he didn't collect tax. That's just plainly inane. The police didn't walk up to Eric Garner and say, hey did you collect tax on that sale? No? Bam, you're dead.

No, they followed orders to crackdown on untaxed cigarettes, This led to overenforcement and someone ending up dead over loose cigarettes.

NYPD No. 3's order over loose smokes led to Garner chokehold death - NY Daily News

CanadaJohn · Dec 5, 2014

Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

ReverendHellh0und said:
What is the punishment/fine? I couldn't find that.

Sorry - it's really not that important to me to do the research for you - and I don't mean any disrespect by that comment - I'm just not that curious. I'm sure it's in the 28 pages of the bylaw that I provided.

VanceMack · Dec 5, 2014

Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

dirtpoorchris said:
You know what happens when you block the veins in the neck? Pressure builds up in the heart. To a fat man a choke hold is more lethal than to a skinny man. A choke hold is a lethal tactic.

To a fat man, tying his shoes is a risky proposition. Probably not wise to resist arrest...especially not for a man with 30 prior arrests.

ReverendHellh0und · Dec 5, 2014

Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

CanadaJohn said:
Sorry - it's really not that important to me to do the research for you - and I don't mean any disrespect by that comment - I'm just not that curious. I'm sure it's in the 28 pages of the bylaw that I provided.

That's fine, One can't really state then something is against the law then and not be able to state the actual law being broken with authority. There is nothing in what you linked that addressed the fine for unlicences individuals selling untaxed loose cigarettes.

That was my point.

It also brings us back to it's about tax, he was arrested for suspicion of having and selling cigarettes that weren't paid the tax on./

I also brought up the possibility of a state law that is mentioned. but the actual law this man broke is still elusive.

VanceMack · Dec 5, 2014

Re: No Indictment in Chokehold Death

dirtpoorchris said:
Well you see the cops purposely targeting legs instead of the head. Cops in america seem to love to clober the head. Like this guy.

It should be rule of law that officers have to earn their paychecks. Like these guys.

There should be no targeting of the head or neck ever. Unless the criminal targets a cops neck or head. And even then if a old lady or cripple slaps a cop in the face the cop shouldnt get a ticket to slut away.

There seems to be a huge case of "this cop is a ****in *****, eager to prove on weaklings or subdued or ganged up targets" thing here in America going on.

You DO understand the exertion shown in ANY of those videos is just as likely if not more so have caused Garner a heart attack then being grabbed by the neck and put to the ground...right?

No Indictment in Chokehold Death [W:1903,2680]

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