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There was no self defense... The cops were the one assualting. **** you wanna be word-smiths are annoying.
The disallowed chokehold I'll give you. I think the NYPD should reprimand, punish, or even fire the officer for that. If I were the police chief, I'd fire him.
I don't think a criminal indictment against him is warranted though. It's not like it was just two individuals who got in a fight, and one guy died. That would be manslaughter. This is a case of police officers trying to do their job, and something went wrong in the course of doing that. They should be given more leeway.
As for whether he was selling cigarettes - notice the one officer making the arrest was dressed as a civilian, most likely it was a sting where he went in undercover and "bought" illegal goods from this man, which resulted in the arrest.
I don't think he looked that sickly or unhealthy. To me, he just looks like a very large and powerful man, and he looks very agitated and uncooperative.
The whole thing is very sad though, I agree. Especially over such a stupid and minor crime. And it couldn't have come at a worse time for us as a country.
No, that also is false. He did not die as a result of "struggling with the officers."
"Struggling" is not a cause of death.
However, you do raise a question in that should the force be relative to the person it is used against?
In your opinion, would that force have been reasonable against a 3 year old? A 90 year old? I gather in your opinion the answer is yes, that the person him/herself is irrelevant.
Obviously that man was not a "healthy person." In fact, people like you are claiming that is blatantly obvious.
Hmmmm, think about that for a moment. The offense (alleged)? Selling cigarettes on the street without a permit. The person doing it? A person obviously in very poor health. So... what should the attitude of the police then be? Clearly, your view is to disregard the poor health of the person. Even use it against him maybe?.
Have you even watched the tape? This guy does not look frail like a 3 year old or a 90 year old. He doesn't look to be in poor health. He looks like a large, aggressive man.
I formed my opinion without regard to the GJ decision. The GJ ONLY hears what the DA presents - who is employed by the same government the police are - and there is mega millions at stake in a potential civil suit - plus battling the police union - if a conviction. Grand jurors aren't randomly selected or elected either. They are picked by the criminal justice system, which is a closed, self protecting system. You also can't sue for even the most grotesquely illegal conduct within the criminal justice system. They are self protecting in every way - including legally.
It would be EXTREMELY rare for a GJ to indict against the wishes of the DA.
There is only one state that does not limit it to only the DA can present evidence to a grand jury - and that's Texas. However, that aspect of old Texas law isn't advertised. It's called "citizen's direct grand jury referral." Under the 1800s Texas constitution, ANYONE can ask to speak to the county grand jury. This was to prevent government corruption. Of course, Texas doesn't advertise that now.
It should be that way everywhere. ANYONE who wanted to present evidence to that grand jury should have been able to, including his family. Instead, the criminal justice system is closes and self protective. As a result, no DA or cop is every prosecuted for false affidavits, false reports, perjury etc. The only cops who will be prosecuted are those the government wants prosecuted - and that is very, very rare, particularly for the civil liabilities that then result against the governmental entity.
An indictment would mean a $50,000,000 lawsuit against the city. That is a $50 million dollar incentive not to indict.
Do you realize how hypocritical you look when you agreed with Clive Bundy's bull**** argument about ancestral rights* while ignoring that he broke the law by not paying millions in taxes and then come here justifying this vicious attack by the NYPD because someone decided this guy was the worst criminal since... I don't know... any other low level bootleg cigarette peddler in the continental US?
Μολὼν λαβέ;1064051768 said:So he killed himself? Not according to the coroner's report. The cop killed him. It was ruled a homicide, not a suicide.
Yes, but heart trauma also can cause this. A person with a weak heart can not pump the oxygen fast enough - thus the person can't catch their breathe. That is why if a person is having difficulty breathing goes to ER they will do an EKG - though seemingly the lungs and heart are not related to each other.
The heart of a 400 pound older guy under stress and attack likely is going to experience breathing difficulty- which is really a heart issue, the heart already aged and strained having to deal with 400 pounds. As the video shows, when the chock hold released the heart rate soars - poising danger of everything from heart attack to stroke (freeing a clot) to blood vessel in brain bursting. I suspect that under all those stresses and demands his heart threw in the towel.
One thing I don't recall hearing is an officer telling him to turn around and but his hands behind his back or even "you're under arrest." I just see a police officer grabbing at his arm, then another and him then taken down.
Was he ever told "you're under arrest" or "put your hands behind you back" (or in the air or "get on the ground" etc.)? Maybe I just missed that part of it. It seems before someone is "resisting arrest" they have to be told they are under arrest, not just grabbing at him. Again, I maybe missed that part of it.
It's not "thug stuff" it's reality and pertinent in discerning the truth. And yes Garner resisted arrest. What do you call a person who has been arrested 30 times? St. Francis of Assisi? A "gentle giant"? This guy was no stranger to the cops.No... Never once did he swat at the police. He flailed a bit in his own personal space and tried to retract his arms after the cops grabbed his arm. I dont get why you are posting some "thug" stuff that has nothing to do with the event captured on video. Your tactic seems to be "The cops wrong doing should be ignored because it would be a shame to punish him killing someone who was a "thug". Thats a pretty crappy tactic.
You pretty much would have to sell to the grand jury that the officers knew this man wasn't guilty of anything but they took him down and arrested him anyway. To me, that's a reach.
It's not "thug stuff" it's reality and pertinent in discerning the truth. And yes Garner resisted arrest. What do you call a person who has been arrested 30 times? St. Francis of Assisi? A "gentle giant"? This guy was no stranger to the cops.
Garner was arguing with the cops who were there to arrest him after he got busted for selling untaxed (black market) cigarettes by an undercover cop. A crime he was currently on bail awaiting trial, along with driving without a licence, possession of drugs, and false personation. He was in no way co-operating with the police.
The one that created this video and added all the "commentary" was his friend Ramsey Orta who also has a rap sheet including a couple of felonies. According to court records he was due in court on robbery charges stemming from a May arrest and an assault charge from an arrest that occurred three days prior of him filming this video. A few weeks after the death of Garner he was spotted in a drug prone district under surveillance by undercover cops. He was in possession of a gun. Felons aren't allowed to have guns and he got arrested again. Why is this important? Neither Ramsey Orta nor Garner were/are law abiding citizens. The police had a reason for being there that day. It's not due to racial profiling or mistreating another over the color of their skin. They were there because of criminal activity.
:lol: What in HELL are you talking about?? Lordy.
As to "he was only selling bootleg cigs," what I gleaned from the video and news story was that they told him to move along . . . and he wouldn't. They were answering a complaint from shop keepers. Cop gives you a lawful order? Do it. Cop gives you an UNlawful order, do it. Fight your battle somewhere else besides the street. He was, as are so many people who die or are injured at the hands of cops, an IDIOT.
You can find Garner's criminal background reporting his 30 previous arrests with a google search and find a number of references.Do you have a link on this info or can I just google it?
You sure about those statistics? In NYC, it is just the opposite.30 black men are killed by PD per 1,000,000.
1 white man is killed by PD per 1,000,000.
Micheal Brown's death is not an anomaly.
Blah blah blah blah blah. All that has nothing to do with cops using lethal force against a non-violent man.It's not "thug stuff" it's reality and pertinent in discerning the truth. And yes Garner resisted arrest. What do you call a person who has been arrested 30 times? St. Francis of Assisi? A "gentle giant"? This guy was no stranger to the cops.
Garner was arguing with the cops who were there to arrest him after he got busted for selling untaxed (black market) cigarettes by an undercover cop. A crime he was currently on bail awaiting trial, along with driving without a licence, possession of drugs, and false personation. He was in no way co-operating with the police.
The one that created this video and added all the "commentary" was his friend Ramsey Orta who also has a rap sheet including a couple of felonies. According to court records he was due in court on robbery charges stemming from a May arrest and an assault charge from an arrest that occurred three days prior of him filming this video. A few weeks after the death of Garner he was spotted in a drug prone district under surveillance by undercover cops. He was in possession of a gun. Felons aren't allowed to have guns and he got arrested again. Why is this important? Neither Ramsey Orta nor Garner were/are law abiding citizens. The police had a reason for being there that day. It's not due to racial profiling or mistreating another over the color of their skin. They were there because of criminal activity.
I aint sayin...I'm just sayin. The 'chokehold' was applied at 44 seconds into the video. It was released at 52 seconds into the video after the suspect was on the ground and subdued.
A 'chokehold'...for 8 seconds...did not cause his death. Sorry...thats just fact.
Here's what bothers me so much about this. A father of 6 is dead. Why? I can't find a good reason. Can you?
So here's what bothers me of the reason why people give: "He was RESISTING arrest."
Dood, get real.Here's what bothers me so much about this. A father of 6 is dead. Why? I can't find a good reason. Can you?
So here's what bothers me of the reason why people give: "He was RESISTING arrest."
Was he? He didn't want to be arrested for certain. But I don't see him fighting anyone. He didn't like someone poking at his chest or grabbing at his arm. I don't hear any commands of turn around or get on the ground or put your hands behind you back.
I have come to completely disagree with - for petty infractions - if a person isn't INSTANTLY totally submissive they are "resisting" is given by armchair police groupies and wannabe pretend tough cops themselves - and therefore can be jumped by a bunch of police, thrown to the ground, face shoved into concrete, beaten, tasered, chocked, kicked, and clubs - often with horrific massive injuries, disfigurement, and occasionally killed.
That father of 6 had not threatened those officers in any way. He had not tried to flee. He was arguing that there was no reason to arrest him and that he is tired of police arresting him every time they see him. Yeah, I'd get tired of that too. I don't see him "RESISTING" at all. Yet if he was, the level of his resistance is relevant.
If that HAD been a street gang who had jumped him for his wallet (instead of government enforcers jumping him for his wallet via fines), without a doubt those gang members would have been indicted for murder. Yet not one of those officers will even be admonished. And the police union would win a grievance if they were.
YouTube if FULL of those videos. Now and then we debate them on the forum - for which the "but he was RESISTING" - which then justified any gang violence of any kind against the person. We've seen a person whose only offense was a being a street person in a nice part of town beaten and crushed to death by 5 officers. That's ok, because he was "resisting." This guy is dead - justified because "he was resisting."
Totally, absolute submissiveness or any amount of violence and assault then is done to the citizen by the government.
Somehow that doesn't seem what the American Revolution and the concept of "land of the free" is about. Each instance of this has more angered me. Those officers jumped that obese old guy like a bunch of street gang punks trying to take his wallet. What he was accused of - no evidence seen of it - was so trivial, so petty, and so common it almost laughable at their radical response - their gang assault leaving 6 children without their father.
Screw this. This "resisting" justifies any level of police violence needs to stop. Seriously, "resisting" isn't justification to violently gang attack someone because the attackers are police officers.
A citizen is dead because a group of government agents jumped him like a pack of gangsters for an allegation that he had not paid a 29 cent tax on an alleged - but unseen - cigarette he sold.
This fellow citizen doesn't like that. I don't like it a lot. I bet his children and their mother like it even less.
The same person that grabbed him from behind is the same person that moved to his shoulders and held his head down 8 seconds after he hit the ground. The entire time he was saying "I CANT BREATHE! I CANT BREATHE!" guess what he was doing. BREATHING. He was overweight, out of shape, and had asthma. He wasnt being choked out. He died because he over exerted himself resisting arrest, hence the factors acute and chronic bronchial asthma, obesity and hypertensive cardiovascular diseaseNo, that is not accurate nor was the chockhold in isolation as it was in the video presented earlier. It was part of a collective attack.
The legal question was NOT just manslaughter/murder. The DA ONLY gave those options not wanting an indictment.
The DA did not give the option of lesser charges such assault, violation of civil rights, official misconduct or official oppression.
You need to understand that to some people it's the law and you have to do what the law says is a very powerful argument. Therefore, if the law says you did something wrong and you don't act like a submissive little sheep you're being out of line and force is called for to get you to behave. It's the circle of logic that is necessary to really believe in any of this stuff really and it's one of the reasons I no longer do.
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