No, Barack Obama did not change U.S. policy regarding Jerusalem.

[Lerxst]

Perhaps you weren't paying attention or perhaps it takes a great deal of your time to come up with schoolyard insults, but here is someone else you might recognize voicing this 'radical change in US policy.'

Not quite sure you understand the difference between a speech and a President officially recognizing Jerusalem as the capital of Israel and stating his intent to move the U.S. embassy there. One is simply a statement, makes people feel good (or bad). The other is an actual foreign policy change. Just like using a Presidential waiver to avoid moving the U.S. embassy is an official foreign policy decision, and one that has been made for national security reasons since Bill Clinton was in office.

A speech doesn't trigger a U.N. vote of condemnation, a speech doesn't breach U.N. Security Council Resolution 478. The President officially recognizing Jerusalem as the capitol and moving the U.S. embassy from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem, and then following that up with threats against other governments who vote against the U.S. taking these actions...well that will certainly do the trick.



Glad I could help educate you on the nuances of political speech writing and actually shifting U.S. foreign policy. No need to thank me, I do it because I care about you.

 

[Captain Adverse]

Not quite sure you understand the difference between a speech and a President officially recognizing Jerusalem as the capital of Israel and stating his intent to move the U.S. embassy there. One is simply a statement, makes people feel good (or bad). The other is an actual foreign policy change. Just like using a Presidential waiver to avoid moving the U.S. embassy is an official foreign policy decision, and one that has been made for national security reasons since Bill Clinton was in office.

The difference is Obama was spouting platitudes.

Trump took action. :coffeepap:

 

[trblmkr]

Now you've done it. Don't you know by now that everything Obama says is in code that can only be properly translated using a Breitbart or Alex Jones filter? After translation, that speech reads, Death to Israel, Death to the Jews, Kim Kardasian is the only true god.

 

[Kal'Stang]

Moderator's Warning:

Thread Re-Opened. Enjoy!

 

[Lerxst]

The difference is Obama was spouting platitudes.

Trump took action. :coffeepap:

Which was exactly my point.

Although I'm not a fan of what Trump has done.

 

[Mycroft]

The difference is Obama was spouting platitudes.

Trump took action. :coffeepap:

^^^

Exactly what I was going to say.

Obama...all talk...no action.

Trump...just do it.

 

[chuckiechan]

Not quite sure you understand the difference between a speech and a President officially recognizing Jerusalem as the capital of Israel and stating his intent to move the U.S. embassy there. One is simply a statement, makes people feel good (or bad). The other is an actual foreign policy change. Just like using a Presidential waiver to avoid moving the U.S. embassy is an official foreign policy decision, and one that has been made for national security reasons since Bill Clinton was in office.

A speech doesn't trigger a U.N. vote of condemnation, a speech doesn't breach U.N. Security Council Resolution 478. The President officially recognizing Jerusalem as the capitol and moving the U.S. embassy from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem, and then following that up with threats against other governments who vote against the U.S. taking these actions...well that will certainly do the trick.



Glad I could help educate you on the nuances of political speech writing and actually shifting U.S. foreign policy. No need to thank me, I do it because I care about you.

All Obama did was jabber word salad and then kick the can down the road for the next president.

 

[Lerxst]

^^^

Exactly what I was going to say.

Obama...all talk...no action.

Trump...just do it.

All Obama did was jabber word salad and then kick the can down the road for the next president.

And that's all previous Presidents did as well. For good reason.

Trump didn't do us, the Israeli's, or the Palestinians any favors.

 

[Mycroft]

And that's all previous Presidents did as well. For good reason.

Trump didn't do us, the Israeli's, or the Palestinians any favors.

Actually, he did.

By this action, as well as possibly ending aid money to the Palestinians, he has put them in a position where they have to make a choice they don't want to make: Either work on a peace deal or start a fight. One makes them give up something to get something, the other only gets them something they don't like.

Making people **** or get off the pot is much preferable than kicking the stinking can down the road.

 

[chuckiechan]

And that's all previous Presidents did as well. For good reason.

Trump didn't do us, the Israeli's, or the Palestinians any favors.

Probably true since the Palestinians still won't admit Israel has a right to exist. That does make compromise difficult.

 

[Lerxst]

Probably true since the Palestinians still won't admit Israel has a right to exist. That does make compromise difficult.

Palestine isn't required to recognize Israel's "right" to exist, they only have to recognize the state of Israel, which they have done. There is no mandate to agree with them on a religious issue, and that's what this is about. Even though the majority of U.N. members have recognized the state of Palestine, Israel refuses to do so.

The Israeli government has been as complicit as the Palestinian government in prolonging this conflict, all the while the people of both state's cry for an end to the conflict. Just like every other government involved in a conflict, they've adopted conflict supporting narratives that now are almost self-fulfilling. Don't pretend that this is all the Palestinians fault. That stupid bull**** won't fly with me.

 

[Lerxst]

Actually, he did.

By this action, as well as possibly ending aid money to the Palestinians, he has put them in a position where they have to make a choice they don't want to make: Either work on a peace deal or start a fight. One makes them give up something to get something, the other only gets them something they don't like.

Making people **** or get off the pot is much preferable than kicking the stinking can down the road.

Don't be silly, his policy change didn't make anybody do anything. That is evidenced by the U.N. condemning the action and rebuffing Trump's attempt to bully other nations into remaining silent as a corrupt President does the bidding of another corrupt leader, Netanyahu, and marginalizes the Palestinian people. He did nothing but ensure a continuation of conflict between Israel and Palestine, and by extension Israel and several other Muslim countries in the region. Neither Trump nor Netanyahu have any desire for a peaceful co-existence with the state of Palestine.

Great job, Trump.

 

[Barnacle]

Palestine isn't required to recognize Israel's "right" to exist, they only have to recognize the state of Israel, which they have done. There is no mandate to agree with them on a religious issue, and that's what this is about. Even though the majority of U.N. members have recognized the state of Palestine, Israel refuses to do so.

The Israeli government has been as complicit as the Palestinian government in prolonging this conflict, all the while the people of both state's cry for an end to the conflict. Just like every other government involved in a conflict, they've adopted conflict supporting narratives that now are almost self-fulfilling. Don't pretend that this is all the Palestinians fault. That stupid bull**** won't fly with me.

If Palestine has recognized the state of Israel, why are they throwing rockets into Israel?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lists_of_Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel

 

[Mycroft]

Don't be silly, his policy change didn't make anybody do anything. That is evidenced by the U.N. condemning the action and rebuffing Trump's attempt to bully other nations into remaining silent as a corrupt President does the bidding of another corrupt leader, Netanyahu, and marginalizes the Palestinian people. He did nothing but ensure a continuation of conflict between Israel and Palestine, and by extension Israel and several other Muslim countries in the region. Neither Trump nor Netanyahu have any desire for a peaceful co-existence with the state of Palestine.

Great job, Trump.

I'll take your last "point" first. Both Trump and Netanyahu would love peaceful co-existence. The Palestinians, however, not so much.

Now...we have two leaders who want nothing more than the safety and security of their people and a stable region and world...and you call them "corrupt". But then, you appear to have sympathy for a people who's stated goal is the extinction of one of those leaders and all of his people.

Is that a fair assessment of the things you've said in your post? Or, have I totally misunderstood what you've said?

 

[Fletch]

Not quite sure you understand the difference between a speech and a President officially recognizing Jerusalem as the capital of Israel and stating his intent to move the U.S. embassy there. One is simply a statement, makes people feel good (or bad). The other is an actual foreign policy change. Just like using a Presidential waiver to avoid moving the U.S. embassy is an official foreign policy decision, and one that has been made for national security reasons since Bill Clinton was in office.

A speech doesn't trigger a U.N. vote of condemnation, a speech doesn't breach U.N. Security Council Resolution 478. The President officially recognizing Jerusalem as the capitol and moving the U.S. embassy from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem, and then following that up with threats against other governments who vote against the U.S. taking these actions...well that will certainly do the trick.



Glad I could help educate you on the nuances of political speech writing and actually shifting U.S. foreign policy. No need to thank me, I do it because I care about you.

Nothing worse than being arrogant, condescending and 100% wrong at the same time, yet you hit the trifecta just the same. The president sets our foreign policy. In Obamas own words he said "Jerusalem must remain the capital of Israel and it must remain undivided." Trump did not alter our policy toward Jerusalem, he implemented what Bush and Obama had promised to do.

 

[Born Free]

And that's all previous Presidents did as well. For good reason.

Trump didn't do us, the Israeli's, or the Palestinians any favors.

So you advocate saying Jerusalem is the capital of Israel, but never acting on what you said? So what they say is meaningless. That reminds me of Obama's red line, words but no action...

 

[Lerxst]

If Palestine has recognized the state of Israel, why are they throwing rockets into Israel?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lists_of_Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel

What does them firing rockets into Israel have to do with them recognizing the state of Israel? The two are not mutually exclusive actions.

 

[Lerxst]

Nothing worse than being arrogant, condescending and 100% wrong at the same time, yet you hit the trifecta just the same. The president sets our foreign policy. In Obamas own words he said "Jerusalem must remain the capital of Israel and it must remain undivided." Trump did not alter our policy toward Jerusalem, he implemented what Bush and Obama had promised to do.

You clearly don't understand how policy differs from giving a speech.

Moving the embassy to Jerusalem is a literal policy change, since the previous policy has been to NOT move the embassy. And you apparently didn't pay much attention to the rest of Obama's stance towards Israel.

 

[Lerxst]

So you advocate saying Jerusalem is the capital of Israel, but never acting on what you said? So what they say is meaningless. That reminds me of Obama's red line, words but no action...

I agree completely that it was all words and no action.

I do not advocate recognizing Jerusalem as Israel's capital at this point.

 

[Barnacle]

What does them firing rockets into Israel have to do with them recognizing the state of Israel? The two are not mutually exclusive actions.

"... It (Palestine) officially recognizes Israel’s existence and has done so since 1993 but not its right to exist, because it sees Israel as a state born in sin, the sin of Palestinian displacement.

In fact Abbas has said the PA will never sign deal demanding recognition of Israel as Jewish state. For more on this read Benny Morris’ excellent book One State Two States and this article in Foreign Affairs - The Problem Is Palestinian Rejectionism. ..."

https://www.quora.com/Does-the-Palestinian-Authority-officially-recognize-Israels-right-to-exist


In other words: I recognize your existence - because you are there and I can see you -,
but that does not mean you have a right to exist, hence my frequent flyer rockets.

 

[Born Free]

I agree completely that it was all words and no action.

I do not advocate recognizing Jerusalem as Israel's capital at this point.

All the naysayers say that, so I ask when in your mind is the proper time to take action.

 

[Lerxst]

I'll take your last "point" first. Both Trump and Netanyahu would love peaceful co-existence. The Palestinians, however, not so much.

We are just going to disagree on this. Trump and Bibi's actions to not back this sentiment up.

Now...we have two leaders who want nothing more than the safety and security of their people and a stable region and world...

We will not agree on this.

and you call them "corrupt". But then, you appear to have sympathy for a people who's stated goal is the extinction of one of those leaders and all of his people.

Both of them are actually corrupt. Trump's Presidency is suspect and there is an active investigation centered on this right now, and Netanyahu and several of his close colleagues are under investigation for bribery and other acts of official misconduct. He will likely be indicted soon.

I have no sympathy for the political leadership of Palestine and Israel, because they are both prolonging the conflict. I have sympathy for the Palestinians and Israeli's who are caught in the middle of this. You may not believe this but the majority of Israeli's and Palestinians want an end to the conflict and a peaceful two-state solution. The governments however will simply not move this concept forward in a meaningful way. The cycle of conflict continues.

Is that a fair assessment of the things you've said in your post?

Obviously not.

Or, have I totally misunderstood what you've said?

Obviously you have.

 

[Lerxst]

All the naysayers say that, so I ask when in your mind is the proper time to take action.

Naysayers as to what?

The proper time is when Israel and Palestine achieve a mutually agreed upon peace plan that defines the role of Jerusalem. Pretty much the way almost the entire rest of the world feels.

 

[Mycroft]

We are just going to disagree on this. Trump and Bibi's actions to not back this sentiment up.


We will not agree on this.

Both of them are actually corrupt. Trump's Presidency is suspect and there is an active investigation centered on this right now, and Netanyahu and several of his close colleagues are under investigation for bribery and other acts of official misconduct. He will likely be indicted soon.

I have no sympathy for the political leadership of Palestine and Israel, because they are both prolonging the conflict. I have sympathy for the Palestinians and Israeli's who are caught in the middle of this. You may not believe this but the majority of Israeli's and Palestinians want an end to the conflict and a peaceful two-state solution. The governments however will simply not move this concept forward in a meaningful way. The cycle of conflict continues.


Obviously not.

Obviously you have.

I think I've accurately described what you said. You just don't like what I said and you disagree with MY assessment of the issue.

So it goes...

 

[Lerxst]

I think I've accurately described what you said. You just don't like what I said and you disagree with MY assessment of the issue.

So it goes...

Now you've just elevated your status to liar. And that's fine. I will no longer expect honest debate out of you.