• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

New to here and politics and have some questions.

Brand814

New member
Joined
Nov 11, 2012
Messages
17
Reaction score
3
So for some reason I recently in the past few weeks have had a huge spark of interest and have been reading non-stop on any political news I can find. It's alot to wrap my head around right away, so I have some questions. Didn't know where to post them so I hope this is ok. Please go easy, I'm new ha. For reference, anything before Clinton is really before my time. So..

1. Been reading alot of news about this 'fiscal cliff', and while I understand the basics: I get that working on eliminating some of our national debt is important, but I don't know why, as in what it does. What would improve if the debt slowly lowered?

2. I was reading in the forum about what would happen if the tax cuts expired on Jan. 1, and someone mentioned that (IIRC), in a certain amount of time there would be $50 BIL, but I couldnt tell if he was being sarcastic or not, there was alot of that in the thread lol.

Thanks to everyone who replies in advance! Like I said, I am new to politics and still learning as much as I can.
 

Probably nothing. The federal debt is an accounting issue, nothing more, nothing less. Having a budget deficit is probably less than ideal, be we have ran a deficit and had a federal debt for most of the existence of this country.


I have heard that that if the tax cuts for the top two percent expired, that it would increase government revenue by about $50 billion. I assume that is what you are referring to.

What amazes me is that the same people who are claiming that the sky is falling due to the budget deficit, are are also the ones who are panicking over the fiscal cliff which significantly cuts federal spending and increases the tax rate to what they were the last time that we had a balanced budget (the Clinton era tax rates). they should actually be looking forward to the fiscal cliff as it will significantly lower our deficit.
 

no the sky is falling because obama won. not because there are any problems with america. the america is doomed philosophy is rooted in rush limbaugh more than reality. and indeed, you would think they'd look forward to returning to a boom time by making the rich pay a tiny % more of their money, but instead they'd like america to fail while they silently mumble to god about doing his fictional will while abusing women and spitting on the poor.
 

Oh, and welcome to DP Brand814.
 
Awesome info imagep, much appreciated! So when you say a 'balanced budget', I assume that is another one of those things that is more of an accounting issue more then anything?
 
Also, if national debt is nothing more than an accounting issue, why is it such a big deal? Like I said, I am new to this and just have questions.
 
I'm with imagep.


Basically, if we go over this fiscal cliff, the worst that can really happen is, some of our debt holders (china, japan) will come calling, wanting to get paid. At which point, we tell them, sorry, we got no money. And then they can choose to either try to invade us (bad choice), or impose some form of trade embargo or tariff (equally bad choice). You see, being the worlds largest consumer, we get the "special customer treatment". Kinda like a front of the line pass at disney, for paying more at the ticket booth. So, yeah, nothing really happens should we go over this cliff. Nothing could even REALLY happen is we just screw F YOU to all of our debt holders. Because, ultimately, the US is the only real debt holder. We print our own money.

As for the extra 50 billion in revenue, by letting the wealthier americans pay higher taxes...it's really more of a semantics thing. The percentage the wealthy would pay, by contrast to what they make, is small. Like, think, pennies on the dollar. As in, if you make 10 bucks an hour, it's equivilant to you paying an extra cent of taxes for every couple of hours you work. True story. But that it's a tax increase, is the real issue. It goes against the primary beliefs of conservatism, and libertarianism. Also, that 50 billion, as it applies to government revenue, is EQUALLY small. You think of it as a large number. But let's assume, for a minute that uncle sam will choose to use ALL 50 bill on paying down the deficit. Every year it's taken in. One thousand billions is a trillion. Do that math.
 
Also, if national debt is nothing more than an accounting issue, why is it such a big deal? Like I said, I am new to this and just have questions.

DEBT is not bad, the REASONS for the debt is. It's never too bright of an idea to consistently spend more money than you have, but it is ultimately impossible to avoid, for MOST people, governments included. I mean, unless you can save up 200K IN CASH (good luck), you're never buying a house without debt, or going to college, etc. Uncle Sam thinks of it the same way. Only, uncle Sam likes MUCH more expensive things, like wars, medicare, and highways.

What ultimately hurts the US of A is it's own citizen's faith in her. That's what keeps our money valuable. The belief in it's value.
 
Awesome info imagep, much appreciated! So when you say a 'balanced budget', I assume that is another one of those things that is more of an accounting issue more then anything?

Sure. Our government either has to tax, or print, or borrow every penny that it spends. Since no one likes taxes, we naturally prefer to print or borrow our money. Our mechanism for printing money is essentially borrowing from the federal reserve (which can poof up an unlimited amount of money anytime that they choose to), so when we print, for accounting purposes, it is considered borrowing, and it is added to our federal debt (even though money borrowed from the fed may never have to be repaid, it just keeps on rolling over). When we borrow from sources other than the fed, it's not exactly like the US gov has to go to a bank and apply for a loan. We borrow by the treasury issuing securities, these securities are then sold through private security dealers to the public, for whatever price the securities will bring in the free market. American citizens, banks, corporations, and even foreign entities are free to purchase these securities.

Our ability to print money is only restricted by the threat of inflation. The fed is only willing to purchase gov securities up to an amount that they think will keep inflation at about their target rate (assumably about 3% inflation). In theory, if our federal budget was small enough, and if our productivity was increasing fast enough, the gov could print all the money that it needed without having to borrow or tax. But in reality, since our gov spending is much higher than what could be funded by printing ( without having excess inflation), then we have to borrow or tax the rest of our government funding.

If we broke down our federal debt into subcategories, we would find that there are several very different debts. Debt to the fed is a biggie, but it's not really a problem because it is totally an accounting issue and has little other significance since it never has to be repaid.

Intergovermental debt is also a biggie, thats where one part of the government owes money to another part of government - like the social security trust fund has excess money, so it uses that money to purchase treasury securities, which is the most logical thing for it to do. the other option would be to simply store the excess money in a vault, which would be pointless and yield no return. Intergovernmental debt is legitimate debt, but it is debt to ourselves, so it's not really of that much concern.

Then the remainder of our debt is debt to all other entities, which includes individual savers, corporations who choose to invest in the US government, and foreign countries and citizens who are using the US gov debt more or less like a savings account. Many entities happen to have excess money that they don't need immediately, so they purchase treasuries with their extra money, as an alternative to investing in real estate or the stock market or corporate bonds. They do this mostly because they feel that treasuries are the safest investment in the world. The US government, unlike individual states, or even many countries like Greece, is monetarily sovereign, meaning that the US can print it's own money. The US government can NEVER go bankrupt or default on it's debt obligations due to a lack of money because it can print all that it chooses to. And indeed, the US government has NEVER defaulted on a debt obligation.


Due to our trade deficit, many foreign entities hold excess dollars that they do not currently have a need for, so they repatriate that money by purchasing US Treasury securities (assumibly because they feel that treasuries are the safest investment in the world). The foreign debt is the only part of our debt that we should have much concern with because it represents a potential claim against US goods, but until we start running a trade surplus, this part of the debt will not need to be repaid.
 
Thanks @ KevinKohler, you made that very simple to understand, appreciated.

@ imagep, awesome information! I'll be reading over that a few times to fully grasp everything, but that is above and beyond what I was looking for. Seriously appreciated!!

I also appreciate the willingness to explain things and not judge as to why I'm just now showing interest in this (I'm newly 27).
 
Also, if national debt is nothing more than an accounting issue, why is it such a big deal? Like I said, I am new to this and just have questions.

It's not really a big deal. The only ones who make a big deal of it are the uninformed or misinformed, which unfortunately is most of America, including many of our politicians.

The debt level that we currently have is sustainable...forever, if need be. What may be an issue is the amount of our budget deficit which is funded by foreign debt as that represents a potential future claim against US goods. Other countries will never actually want their US dollars back. US dollars are only legal tender in the US, other countries have their own currency. But it is possible that foreign entities will eventually desire more US goods, at which time they will choose to stop purchasing treasury securities, and to use the US dollars that they are currently using to purchase treasuries with to purchase those US goods. Of course this may put the government in a bind, but remember the US gov has the power to not only borrow, but they can print and tax. One thing that a reversal of the trade deficit will create is demand for US products, and the money that foreign entities are currently lending to the US gov will be spent in the US private sector, creating jobs, corporate profits, and an expanded tax base (which of course lessens the need for our government to borrow).

Purchasers of treasuries can't actually demand their money back. Nor can they "call in" any loans to the US government. When they purchase treasuries, they are entering into an agreement with the US government, and that agreement does not include any right to "call in" anything. As the treasuries mature, they can cash them in of course, but the treasury sells a variety of securities with longterm, medium term, and short term maturation dates. Now if someone didn't want to wait until the securities matured, then of course they could sell them on the open market, just exactly the way that they purchased them, and their are special markets and dealers who will be happy to accomidate the sale of these securities - but such sale would not involve our government having to "cash in" these securities if they have not yet matured.

Thus it is really not possible for our government to be in any sudden unexpected cash crunch due to anyone suddenly cashing in their US Gov securities.
 
Cookies are required to use this site. You must accept them to continue using the site. Learn more…