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My biggest issue with America from a limey.

yo1

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Im a limey.

shane_mcgowan.jpg

So...chances are it will be hand bags at dawn over foreign policy. However, I have known Americans for a long time. I have watched their lives mirror mine as we grew up together separated by a few 1000 miles of ocean and a lot of hot air.

America and Britain are not dissimilar. There are some notable things we differ in, and I'm sure we all know them. However, if I'm being helpful, its not the obvious things that stand out. From real experience of knowing Americans and taking to them, it's not the health system or the false dichotomy in politics that is my biggest issue with your system.

Britain has it's fair share of faults, and I'm sure you'll name them. But for me, growing up in a parallel life to my American friends, the biggest single issue I see is the education system.

Very specifically, in the UK, if you are smart enough, you go to university. Period.

It is a conscious choice to not do so. Not a financial one.

The UK is not perfect and we have tuition fees. We have student loans system and we have debt. However, if you are student A, who works hard and qualifies from secondary school, you go to the university of your choice, grades permitting.

This is simply not the case in America and the fees seem astronomical.

This is not conducive to any kind of meritocracy and this effects every single one of you.

Whether you attack my comments or not, I'm coming from a good place in this thread.

Any society should benefit from the brightest minds it can muster. Some of you people have those minds and never got the chance to shine.

One can not punish the child for the success of the parents. Hereditary wealth is an unavoidable barrier to meritocracy and that's acceptable. However, the education system should be the great leveler and not the divider it becomes when able and bright young people simply can not afford to go to university.

That's the biggest single thing i see that's wrong with America domestically, from growing up parallel to Americans.

Health is something else, and foreign policy is a separate issue. But Higher Education is priceless in the actual gift of equal opportunity to the population, and it simply doesn't seem to exist in that context stateside.
 
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Im a limey.

View attachment 67146957

So...chances are it will be hand bags at dawn over foreign policy. However, I have known Americans for a long time. I have watched their lives mirror mine as we grew up together separated by a few 1000 miles of ocean and a lot of hot air.

America and Britain are not dissimilar. There are some notable things we differ in, and I'm sure we all know them. However, if I'm being helpful, its not the obvious things that stand out. From real experience of knowing Americans and taking to them, it's not the health system or the false dichotomy in politics that is my biggest issue with your system.

Britain has it's fair share of faults, and I'm sure you'll name them. But for me, growing up in a parallel life to my American friends, the biggest single issue I see is the education system.

Very specifically, in the UK, if you are smart enough, you go to university. Period.

It is a conscious choice to not do so. Not a financial one.

The UK is not perfect and we have tuition fees. We have student loans system and we have debt. However, if you are student A, who works hard and qualifies from secondary school, you go to the university of your choice, grades permitting.

This is simply not the case in America and the fees seem astronomical.

This is not conducive to any kind of meritocracy and this effects every single one of you.

Whether you attack my comments or not, I'm coming from a good place in this thread.

Any society should benefit from the brightest minds it can muster. Some of you people have those minds and never got the chance to shine.

One can not punish the child for the success of the parents. Hereditary wealth is an unavoidable barrier to meritocracy and that's acceptable. However, the education system should be the great leveler and not the divider it becomes when able and bright young people simply can not afford to go to university.

That's the biggest single thing i see that's wrong with America domestically, from growing up parallel to Americans.

Health is something else, and foreign policy is a separate issue. But Higher Education is priceless in the actual gift of equal opportunity to the population, and it simply doesn't seem to exist in that context stateside.

You don't have a clue.

I went to college in America for free. How? I earned an academic scholarship based on my grades in high school and my SAT scores.

Thus, I'm living proof that any American who is smart enough can go to college for free.

In fact, the school I attended was private and cost something like $50,000 per semester for paying students.

/discussion
 
You don't have a clue.

I went to college in America for free. How? I earned an academic scholarship based on my grades in high school and my SAT scores.

Thus, I'm living proof that any American who is smart enough can go to college for free.

In fact, the school I attended was private and cost something like $50,000 per semester for paying students.

/discussion

Well its just an opinion. Is that the usual route or where you especially gifted?

A private 4-year college costs an average of $26,273 annually for tuition and fees.
 
Undergrad was reasonable for me. I worked hard and had an academic scholarship as well as a PELL grant and other aid, I still had loans but I don't think the amount was unreasonable. It's grad school that is killing me. There are pretty much no scholarships for graduate programs, the federal aid disappears and all you have left is to finance everything. It's almost virtually impossible to work and pay your tuition + living expense when they easily add up to about 45k per year and you are in school far more than you were in undergrad. High interest debt is sadly the only option for most people.
 
Undergrad was reasonable for me. I worked hard and had an academic scholarship as well as a PELL grant and other aid, I still had loans but I don't think the amount was unreasonable. It's grad school that is killing me. There are pretty much no scholarships for graduate programs, the federal aid disappears and all you have left is to finance everything. It's almost virtually impossible to work and pay your tuition + living expense when they easily add up to about 45k per year and you are in school far more than you were in undergrad. High interest debt is sadly the only option for most people.

Perhaps i am wrong. I know quite a few people who had good grades and reasonably wealthy families, and it seemed as if the higher education system was a lot more expensive over there. This seems wrong as its a foundation of national progress.

As for post grad, that is expensive here too, but again, i dont know the comparison.

Law postgraduate and master's courses in 2013 | Education | guardian.co.uk

Theres a link for Post Graduate degrees in Law in the UK.

£5000 is $7782
£6000 is $9338

That bracket would cover tuition for a Top 5 -10 Law Uni here.
 
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Well its just an opinion. Is that the usual route or where you especially gifted?

A private 4-year college costs an average of $26,273 annually for tuition and fees.

Scholarships are awarded based upon various criteria, which usually reflect the values and purposes of the donor or founder of the award.

The most common academic scholarships, awarded by either private organizations or directly by a college, recognize academic achievement or high scores on standardized tests.

How much they give out really depends on the school. In my case, I was valuable to the school because my scores raised the average for incoming students, making them look better in the rankings. Therefore, to ensure that I picked them over a higher-rated school, they offered me a full scholarship. I could have elected to attend a higher-ranked institution where my scores would have been closer to that school's average, but then I would have had to pay my way.

I suspect it works this way for many people.

In any case, I have never heard of someone graduating in the top 10% of their high school class who was unable to attend college.
 
Perhaps i am wrong. I know quite a few people who had good grades and reasonably wealthy families, and it seemed as if the higher education system was a lot more expensive over there. This seems wrong as its a foundation of national progress.

As for post grad, that is expensive here too, but again, i dont know the comparison.

Law postgraduate and master's courses in 2013 | Education | guardian.co.uk

Theres post graduate degrees in Law in the UK.

£5000 is $7782

State schools are not terribly expensive.

I would die to have my tuition be $7782. I will be lucky if I stay below $200,000 when I graduate from pharmacy school.

According to this site the average debt for a law school grad in the US is $125,000.

The average education debt for law grads at private schools last year was nearly $125,000, while the average for grads of public law schools was more than $75,700, according to new figures released by the ABA.

Average Debt of Private Law School Grads Is $125K; It's Highest at These Five Schools - ABA Journal
 
State schools are not terribly expensive.

I would die to have my tuition be $7782. I will be lucky if I stay below $200,000 when I graduate from pharmacy school.

According to this site the average debt for a law school grad in the US is $125,000.



Average Debt of Private Law School Grads Is $125K; It's Highest at These Five Schools - ABA Journal

Wow. Cambridge is £8,173 and £18,500 for non UK/EU.

I know Harvard is Harvard, but Cambridge is Cambridge lol.

Edit- I read your link.

1) California Western School of Law, with average debt of $153,145.

2) Thomas Jefferson School of Law in California, with average debt of $153,006.

3) American University in Washington, D.C., with average debt of $151,318.

4) New York Law School, with average debt of $146,230.

5) Phoenix School of Law, with average debt of $145,357

Are we comparing like for like here? What are their standard tuition fees?
 
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State schools are not terribly expensive.

I would die to have my tuition be $7782. I will be lucky if I stay below $200,000 when I graduate from pharmacy school.

Pharmacy and pharmacology postgraduate and master's courses in 2012 | Education | guardian.co.uk

Queens Belfast has £3,732 tuition fees post grad and £10,730-£13,145 non UK/EU.

http://www.thecompleteuniversityguide.co.uk/league-tables/rankings?s=Pharmacology+&+Pharmacy

http://www.qub.ac.uk/home/TuitionFe...ents201213/UKEUPostgraduateTuitionFees201213/

They are ranked 2 in the UK for Pharmacology.
 
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I do not disagree with the sentiment that we should do more for college, but the OP discounts that we have a lot of people in college that do not need to be there. Then there are issues like the US has a a crap load more land than the UK and things like roads, bridges, telephone, electrification, sewage, etc largely are not cost effective in our vast rural areas, but we do it too.
 
The truth is lots of Americans go to "university". We have access to cheap student loans and other government-sponsored financial aid like grants to finance the rocketing tuition. To be honest, I don't know a single person who didn't go to college because they thought they couldn't afford it. The people who didn't go to college were the ones who didn't want to, were interested in other things like learning a trade so they went to a tech school instead. And not all colleges are super expensive. There are lots of local community colleges that are (relatively) affordable.

And, second of all, it's hard to fault the US for having high college costs. The US is the elite of the elite when it comes to higher education. The sheer number and quality of our top prestigious academic institutions is untouchable, no other nation even comes close to competing. All across the world the best and the brightest foreigners flock to the US for the opportunity to study at our campuses. There are lots of areas in which the US is slipping, but the prestige of our higher education system is not one of them.

World's top 100 universities 2013: their reputations ranked by Times Higher Education | News | guardian.co.uk

Academic Ranking of World Universities - 2012| Top 500 universities | Shanghai Ranking - 2012 | World University Ranking - 2012
 
I do not disagree with the sentiment that we should do more for college, but the OP discounts that we have a lot of people in college that do not need to be there. Then there are issues like the US has a a crap load more land than the UK and things like roads, bridges, telephone, electrification, sewage, etc largely are not cost effective in our vast rural areas, but we do it too.

Those damn Brits fit 2 lanes and 2 parked cars in the same width of about one single American lane. That's one thing I learned to appreciate from living across the pond - our massive super-wide highways kick ass.
 
The truth is lots of Americans go to "university". We have access to cheap student loans and other government-sponsored financial aid like grants to finance the rocketing tuition. To be honest, I don't know a single person who didn't go to college because they thought they couldn't afford it. The people who didn't go to college were the ones who didn't want to, were interested in other things like learning a trade so they went to a tech school instead. And not all colleges are super expensive. There are lots of local community colleges that are (relatively) affordable.

And, second of all, it's hard to fault the US for having high college costs. The US is the elite of the elite when it comes to higher education. The sheer number and quality of our top prestigious academic institutions is untouchable, no other nation even comes close to competing. All across the world the best and the brightest foreigners flock to the US for the opportunity to study at our campuses. There are lots of areas in which the US is slipping, but the prestige of our higher education system is not one of them.

World's top 100 universities 2013: their reputations ranked by Times Higher Education | News | guardian.co.uk

Academic Ranking of World Universities - 2012| Top 500 universities | Shanghai Ranking - 2012 | World University Ranking - 2012

The links you sent, showed the UK has a lot of good universities, a lot of foreign students and 2 of the top 10 places on the "shill for Harvard" link and 2 of the top 4 on the Times one.

So in the UK you get a free education and then you go on the dole, I see nothing to emulate here.

To be fair, the thread isnt a pissing contest. The other thread i was reading was commenting on equality of opportunity, and it seems that education is the key.

Why would the top people in any system decide to settle for £45 a week and £200 rent arrears a month on the dole?
 
Those damn Brits fit 2 lanes and 2 parked cars in the same width of about one single American lane. That's one thing I learned to appreciate from living across the pond - our massive super-wide highways kick ass.

Yep and they drive in the center of those little freaking roads too LOL.

And of course there is that little thing about a full-time minimum wage employee in the US makes about as much as a Brit farmer
 
The links you sent, showed the UK has a lot of good universities, a lot of foreign students and 2 of the top 10 places on the "shill for Harvard" link and 2 of the top 4 on the Times one.

Yes. Oxford and Cambridge. The United States has like 50 of the top 100.
 
Yes. Oxford and Cambridge. The United States has like 50 of the top 100.

With nine universities in the top 100, the UK has the second highest number of representatives after the US.

USA is 5 times the size...UK has 2 of the top 4. The cost difference is staggering.

Those damn Brits fit 2 lanes and 2 parked cars in the same width of about one single American lane. That's one thing I learned to appreciate from living across the pond - our massive super-wide highways kick ass.

Better drivers?
 
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With nine universities in the top 100, the UK has the second highest number of representatives after the US.

Yeah, very respectable. :peace

The US is leagues ahead of everyone, though.


Better drivers?

Absolutely. Driving on a freeway in the UK is how commuting to work should be. People actually seem to understand the rules of the road.

Now, if only we could combine the UK's superior drivers with the US's superior roads, we could rule the galaxy! :lol:
 
Yeah, very respectable. :peace

The US is leagues ahead of everyone, though.




Absolutely. Driving on a freeway in the UK is how commuting to work should be. People actually seem to understand the rules of the road.

Now, if only we could combine the UK's superior drivers with the US's superior roads, we could rule the galaxy! :lol:

You seemed to have also been infected with our sense of humour. Arrogant and witty. A dangerous combination. :D
 
I wish the USA had a system of public universities where students could study for free and receive a 4-year degree. Bottom line, taxpayers aren't willing to shell out the enormous amount of money it would take.

While I'm busy wishing, I wish that the USA public school system grades k-12, and the quality of teachers, were still held to the educational standard of 50 years ago. Sadly, they aren't, and our undereducated high school graduates are proof that the current system has failed a vast number of them.

Education is the key to any country's future. Ours isn't looking so rosey.
 
Limey, despite the outlandish cost of education in this country, the universities are still full and they still turn people away. So the same number of people are getting educated as would be the case with a system more like that of the UK. The educational disaster in our country is not in the universities but in the public primary and secondary schools. Our schools have been dumbed down to the lowest common denominator. Our universities, on the other hand, are quite good and full to the brim. I do agree with you about the importance of education to a society.
 
Im a limey. View attachment 67146957 So...chances are it will be hand bags at dawn over foreign policy. However, I have known Americans for a long time. I have watched their lives mirror mine as we grew up together separated by a few 1000 miles of ocean and a lot of hot air. America and Britain are not dissimilar. There are some notable things we differ in, and I'm sure we all know them. However, if I'm being helpful, its not the obvious things that stand out. From real experience of knowing Americans and taking to them, it's not the health system or the false dichotomy in politics that is my biggest issue with your system. Britain has it's fair share of faults, and I'm sure you'll name them. But for me, growing up in a parallel life to my American friends, the biggest single issue I see is the education system. Very specifically, in the UK, if you are smart enough, you go to university. Period. It is a conscious choice to not do so. Not a financial one. The UK is not perfect and we have tuition fees. We have student loans system and we have debt. However, if you are student A, who works hard and qualifies from secondary school, you go to the university of your choice, grades permitting. This is simply not the case in America and the fees seem astronomical. This is not conducive to any kind of meritocracy and this effects every single one of you. Whether you attack my comments or not, I'm coming from a good place in this thread. Any society should benefit from the brightest minds it can muster. Some of you people have those minds and never got the chance to shine. One can not punish the child for the success of the parents. Hereditary wealth is an unavoidable barrier to meritocracy and that's acceptable. However, the education system should be the great leveler and not the divider it becomes when able and bright young people simply can not afford to go to university. That's the biggest single thing i see that's wrong with America domestically, from growing up parallel to Americans. Health is something else, and foreign policy is a separate issue. But Higher Education is priceless in the actual gift of equal opportunity to the population, and it simply doesn't seem to exist in that context stateside.
First, let me say that almost all of Britian's shortcomings may be forgiven for no other reason that that you gave us The Doctor. People who don't understand that are philistines and may be ignored. Second, in my experience, most Americans have a generally favorable opinion of Great Britain, including the parts that don't get along so well with each other. We are generally and broadly speaking a provincial people, so few of us know much about the politics in Great Britain. Third, as Churchill understood, we are most fortunate to have a community of nations that descend from England. We may bicker like elderly sisters in the same kitchen sometimes, but we have fought and striven together at the worst of times. Fourth America has magnificent institutions in many regards. The college system in my vastly superior opinion, ain't one of 'em. I've posted several times lately that I believe that the State should largely be separated from Education in a republic. I'd advise our British cousins that this would be wise for them as well. this is not because of tuition, but because the those who see themselves as ruling elites have an incentive to indoctrinate the young for compliance, rather than for leadership.
 
Im a limey.

View attachment 67146957

So...chances are it will be hand bags at dawn over foreign policy. However, I have known Americans for a long time. I have watched their lives mirror mine as we grew up together separated by a few 1000 miles of ocean and a lot of hot air.

America and Britain are not dissimilar. There are some notable things we differ in, and I'm sure we all know them. However, if I'm being helpful, its not the obvious things that stand out. From real experience of knowing Americans and taking to them, it's not the health system or the false dichotomy in politics that is my biggest issue with your system.

Britain has it's fair share of faults, and I'm sure you'll name them. But for me, growing up in a parallel life to my American friends, the biggest single issue I see is the education system.

Very specifically, in the UK, if you are smart enough, you go to university. Period.

It is a conscious choice to not do so. Not a financial one.

The UK is not perfect and we have tuition fees. We have student loans system and we have debt. However, if you are student A, who works hard and qualifies from secondary school, you go to the university of your choice, grades permitting.

This is simply not the case in America and the fees seem astronomical.

This is not conducive to any kind of meritocracy and this effects every single one of you.

Whether you attack my comments or not, I'm coming from a good place in this thread.

Any society should benefit from the brightest minds it can muster. Some of you people have those minds and never got the chance to shine.

One can not punish the child for the success of the parents. Hereditary wealth is an unavoidable barrier to meritocracy and that's acceptable. However, the education system should be the great leveler and not the divider it becomes when able and bright young people simply can not afford to go to university.

That's the biggest single thing i see that's wrong with America domestically, from growing up parallel to Americans.

Health is something else, and foreign policy is a separate issue. But Higher Education is priceless in the actual gift of equal opportunity to the population, and it simply doesn't seem to exist in that context stateside.

Not sure you understand that there is a public school system of colleges in the U.S. run by each state. So if you are an A student you can go to your state school for a materially lower cost. As an example my son was chosen to be part of the honors program at his state school. If he had gone there, the state would charge zero for his tuition. Private schools are different and very expensive. You probably don't know this either, but the best schools have a "need blind" admissions office. That means people are accepted or rejected based on their skills, if someone is accepted without the financial means to go, then they are given scholarships.

There are many things we can do better, but it is unfortunate that simplistic narratives seem to hold sway with so many.
 
First, let me say that almost all of Britian's shortcomings may be forgiven for no other reason that that you gave us The Doctor. People who don't understand that are philistines and may be ignored. Second, in my experience, most Americans have a generally favorable opinion of Great Britain, including the parts that don't get along so well with each other. We are generally and broadly speaking a provincial people, so few of us know much about the politics in Great Britain. Third, as Churchill understood, we are most fortunate to have a community of nations that descend from England. We may bicker like elderly sisters in the same kitchen sometimes, but we have fought and striven together at the worst of times. Fourth America has magnificent institutions in many regards. The college system in my vastly superior opinion, ain't one of 'em. I've posted several times lately that I believe that the State should largely be separated from Education in a republic. I'd advise our British cousins that this would be wise for them as well. this is not because of tuition, but because the those who see themselves as ruling elites have an incentive to indoctrinate the young for compliance, rather than for leadership.

good reading. and yeh, we all believe in freedom more or less and have faced some truly disgusting perversions of humanity over the years while doing our best not to become them. education is indeed a corner stone of any societies progress.

Not sure you understand that there is a public school system of colleges in the U.S. run by each state. So if you are an A student you can go to your state school for a materially lower cost. As an example my son was chosen to be part of the honors program at his state school. If he had gone there, the state would charge zero for his tuition. Private schools are different and very expensive. You probably don't know this either, but the best schools have a "need blind" admissions office. That means people are accepted or rejected based on their skills, if someone is accepted without the financial means to go, then they are given scholarships.

There are many things we can do better, but it is unfortunate that simplistic narratives seem to hold sway with so many.

If im wrong, then thats a good thing for america.

Education is rarely at the forefront of what i see on political forums, or on the news, but it makes up a lot of my stateside friends worrys, hopes and emotional investment.

Its a critical issue for any society and if America indeed does it well, than thats all the more good for America.
 
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