More than half of immigrants are on welfare

[JumpinJack]

Report: More than half of immigrants on welfare

More than half of the nation's immigrants receive some kind of government welfare, a figure that's far higher than the native-born population's, according to a report to be released Wednesday.

About 51% of immigrant-led households receive at least one kind of welfare benefit, including Medicaid, food stamps, school lunches and housing assistance, compared to 30% for native-led households, according to the report from the Center for Immigration Studies, a group that advocates for lower levels of immigration.

Those numbers increase for households with children, with 76% of immigrant-led households receiving welfare, compared to 52% for the native-born.

The findings are sure to fuel debate on the presidential campaign trail as Republican candidates focus on changing the nation's immigration laws, from calls for mass deportations to ending birthright citizenship.

I knew it was high, but I'm shocked at the high percentage. 76% of immigrant households with kids receive welfare? No wonder my property taxes border on unaffordable.

 

[cpwill]

Report: More than half of immigrants on welfare

I knew it was high, but I'm shocked at the high percentage. 76% of immigrant households with kids receive welfare? No wonder my property taxes border on unaffordable.

Yup.

I think it was Milton Friedman who said that you can have open borders, and you can have a generous social safety net. You just can't have both.

 

[Glen Contrarian]

Report: More than half of immigrants on welfare



I knew it was high, but I'm shocked at the high percentage. 76% of immigrant households with kids receive welfare? No wonder my property taxes border on unaffordable.

From your reference:

Chavez said today's immigrants, like all other immigrant waves in the country's history, start off poorer and have lower levels of education, making it unfair to compare their welfare use to the long-established native-born population. She said immigrants have larger households, making it more likely that one person in that household will receive some kind of welfare benefit. And she said many benefits counted in the study are going to U.S.-born children of immigrants, skewing the findings even more.

In other words, you looked at the numbers...but you didn't ask the OTHER side of the story. Immigrants have ALWAYS generally been poorer - otherwise, why would they want to come to America? Remember the poem on the Statue of Liberty: "...Give me your tired, your poor, your tempest-tost...I lift my lamp beside the golden door." When the Statue of Liberty was erected, the tired/poor/tempest-tost were the Irish and the Italians, and the anti-immigrant crowd said the same things about them as the anti-immigrant crowd says today about those from Central and South America and from Asia.

I'm doggone proud of my wife - she was once an illegal immigrant and got her citizenship thanks to Reagan's amnesty. Today she drives a 2014 Mercedes E350 (we leased it new) and is providing jobs for other Americans. So...yeah, that's what immigrants bring to America: determination, ambition, and gumption...qualities that so many spoiled American brats seem to have forgotten.

 

[TheDemSocialist]

1.)This combines "illegal and legal" immigrants
2.)Welfare claim (not surprising CIS is exploiting the same claim year after year):
Center for Immigration Studies, a group that favors stricter immigration laws, 40 percent of illegal immigrant-headed households used any "major welfare" program in the previous calendar year.

But it’s important to keep two bits of context in mind:

• This statistic addresses households headed by an illegal immigrant. However, many of these households include American citizens within the family, often children who were born in the United States and who received citizenship at birth. Indeed, given the web of restrictions on the granting of government benefits to illegal immigrants, most of the "welfare" benefits being counted in the CIS table are going to citizen children, not to adult illegal immigrants.

• We suspect that when many people hear the term "welfare," they think of cash benefits. However, very little cash assistance is going to illegal immigrants. According to CIS, less than 1 percent of illegal-immigrant-headed households included anyone receiving direct government cash assistance, such as Temporary Aid for Needy Families (TANF), Supplemental Security Income (SSI) or state-run cash aid. This is not surprising: Illegal immigrants are generally barred from receiving such payments.

Instead, 27 percent of such households received coverage from Medicaid, the federal-state health care program for the poor, while 33 percent received food assistance, such as free or reduced-price school lunches, food stamps, or benefits from the Women-Infants-Children program (WIC). As noted earlier, many of the recipients of these programs were actually citizen children of illegal immigrants.

On balance, we rated the claim Mostly False.
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2012/jun/20/ten-illegal-alien-facts-truth-o-meter/

 

[Citizen.Seven]

1.)This combines "illegal and legal" immigrants
2.)Welfare claim (not surprising CIS is exploiting the same claim year after year):
Center for Immigration Studies, a group that favors stricter immigration laws, 40 percent of illegal immigrant-headed households used any "major welfare" program in the previous calendar year.

But it’s important to keep two bits of context in mind:

• This statistic addresses households headed by an illegal immigrant. However, many of these households include American citizens within the family, often children who were born in the United States and who received citizenship at birth. Indeed, given the web of restrictions on the granting of government benefits to illegal immigrants, most of the "welfare" benefits being counted in the CIS table are going to citizen children, not to adult illegal immigrants.

• We suspect that when many people hear the term "welfare," they think of cash benefits. However, very little cash assistance is going to illegal immigrants. According to CIS, less than 1 percent of illegal-immigrant-headed households included anyone receiving direct government cash assistance, such as Temporary Aid for Needy Families (TANF), Supplemental Security Income (SSI) or state-run cash aid. This is not surprising: Illegal immigrants are generally barred from receiving such payments.

Instead, 27 percent of such households received coverage from Medicaid, the federal-state health care program for the poor, while 33 percent received food assistance, such as free or reduced-price school lunches, food stamps, or benefits from the Women-Infants-Children program (WIC). As noted earlier, many of the recipients of these programs were actually citizen children of illegal immigrants.

On balance, we rated the claim Mostly False.
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2012/jun/20/ten-illegal-alien-facts-truth-o-meter/

So, everything is true but it's considered "mostly false" because the welfare takes the form of indirect payments (food and housing) rather than cash. Good grief.

 

[zip]

From your reference:

Chavez said today's immigrants, like all other immigrant waves in the country's history, start off poorer and have lower levels of education, making it unfair to compare their welfare use to the long-established native-born population. She said immigrants have larger households, making it more likely that one person in that household will receive some kind of welfare benefit.
And she said many benefits counted in the study are going to U.S.-born children of immigrants, skewing the findings even more.
In other words, you looked at the numbers...but you didn't ask the OTHER side of the story. Immigrants have ALWAYS generally been poorer - otherwise, why would they want to come to America? Remember the poem on the Statue of Liberty: "...Give me your tired, your poor, your tempest-tost...I lift my lamp beside the golden door." When the Statue of Liberty was erected, the tired/poor/tempest-tost were the Irish and the Italians, and the anti-immigrant crowd said the same things about them as the anti-immigrant crowd says today about those from Central and South America and from Asia.

I'm doggone proud of my wife - she was once an illegal immigrant and got her citizenship thanks to Reagan's amnesty. Today she drives a 2014 Mercedes E350 (we leased it new) and is providing jobs for other Americans. So...yeah, that's what immigrants bring to America: determination, ambition, and gumption...qualities that so many spoiled American brats seem to have forgotten.

"She said immigrants have larger households, making it more likely that one person in that household will receive some kind of welfare benefit.
And she said many benefits counted in the study are going to U.S.-born children of immigrants, skewing the findings even more.[/I] "

Yes, typically, the aliens have one or more children in the US. This is charged to Medicaid (welfare). Then the mother comes in for food stamps (welfare) and continuing Medicaid for the children only. The welfare worker is not allowed to report the aliens, and in most states is so overworked they have little inclination anyway. The food stamp amount is relatively small, but the childbirth of course involves more expense.

There is also some Medicaid program for adult aliens who cannot pay- but I cannot recall the details.

 

[Glen Contrarian]

"She said immigrants have larger households, making it more likely that one person in that household will receive some kind of welfare benefit.
And she said many benefits counted in the study are going to U.S.-born children of immigrants, skewing the findings even more.[/I] "

Yes, typically, the aliens have one or more children in the US. This is charged to Medicaid (welfare). Then the mother comes in for food stamps (welfare) and continuing Medicaid for the children only. The welfare worker is not allowed to report the aliens, and in most states is so overworked they have little inclination anyway. The food stamp amount is relatively small, but the childbirth of course involves more expense.

There is also some Medicaid program for adult aliens who cannot pay- but I cannot recall the details.

This may come as a shock to you, but immigrants - illegal or otherwise - do NOT come to America for food stamps or welfare. If you knew the immigrant community half as well as I do - having lived among them for about half my life - you'd know that already. When they come to America, hardly any of them even know what welfare is. I suggest that you stop making sweeping assumptions as to why people come to America.

And when it comes to the number of children, that has much less to do with "I'm an alien!" and a whole lot more to do with poverty...or haven't you realized yet that poor people tend to have a whole lot more kids than rich people?

 

[Rentoc]

From your reference:

Chavez said today's immigrants, like all other immigrant waves in the country's history, start off poorer and have lower levels of education, making it unfair to compare their welfare use to the long-established native-born population. She said immigrants have larger households, making it more likely that one person in that household will receive some kind of welfare benefit. And she said many benefits counted in the study are going to U.S.-born children of immigrants, skewing the findings even more.

In other words, you looked at the numbers...but you didn't ask the OTHER side of the story. Immigrants have ALWAYS generally been poorer - otherwise, why would they want to come to America? Remember the poem on the Statue of Liberty: "...Give me your tired, your poor, your tempest-tost...I lift my lamp beside the golden door." When the Statue of Liberty was erected, the tired/poor/tempest-tost were the Irish and the Italians, and the anti-immigrant crowd said the same things about them as the anti-immigrant crowd says today about those from Central and South America and from Asia.

I'm doggone proud of my wife - she was once an illegal immigrant and got her citizenship thanks to Reagan's amnesty. Today she drives a 2014 Mercedes E350 (we leased it new) and is providing jobs for other Americans. So...yeah, that's what immigrants bring to America: determination, ambition, and gumption...qualities that so many spoiled American brats seem to have forgotten.

In what way did your wife pay for her violation of US Law? It's great that she is a productive member of society, but she did break the law and there should be a punishment for that.

 

[Rentoc]

This may come as a shock to you, but immigrants - illegal or otherwise - do NOT come to America for food stamps or welfare. If you knew the immigrant community half as well as I do - having lived among them for about half my life - you'd know that already. When they come to America, hardly any of them even know what welfare is. I suggest that you stop making sweeping assumptions as to why people come to America.

And when it comes to the number of children, that has much less to do with "I'm an alien!" and a whole lot more to do with poverty...or haven't you realized yet that poor people tend to have a whole lot more kids than rich people?

You are very wrong on that statement. One of (if not THE) biggest draws for illegals is the welfare system. Get into the country, have a child and draw welfare on top of what ever low paying, cash under the table job you have. They are, in my opinion, stealing from us. They have been allowed to INFEST this country for way too long and it is time we built a big wall and enforced the laws of this country.

 

[Glen Contrarian]

You are very wrong on that statement. One of (if not THE) biggest draws for illegals is the welfare system. Get into the country, have a child and draw welfare on top of what ever low paying, cash under the table job you have. They are, in my opinion, stealing from us. They have been allowed to INFEST this country for way too long and it is time we built a big wall and enforced the laws of this country.

And you're full of it. Guy, I also used to work for immigration - USCIS - and if you actually got off your butt and got to know the (legal and illegal) immigrant community, you'd find that the vast majority of them had no real clue about our welfare system before they got here.

Here's a fer-instance: the third-largest immigrant community in America is the Filipino community, after the Hispanic and the Chinese. Over the past four years, nine of my wife's family has immigrated to America - after waiting twenty-five freaking years - and not a single one of them has drawn welfare. One brother and his wife and kids did get food stamps for a few months just to get by, but got off them as soon as they could. Why? Because to MOST immigrants, such are a matter of SHAME, because they see taking handouts as being no better than the squatters in the third-world countries they came from. Many of them - like my nephew who just graduated Boot Camp two weeks ago at Great Lakes Naval Station - join our military and become part of our very best.

I've watched the immigrant dream come true, again and again and again. I watched them bust their butts harder than my fellow Americans, year in and year out. As far as I'm concerned, someone who comes to America and becomes a citizens the hard way, the right way, truly EARNS their citizenship - which is something that no natural-born American can claim...and so often they're MORE patriotic than most of the rest of us...because people tend to cherish a thing they earned the hard way more than those who were born with that thing.

In other words, you need to have the same experience that I did. I grew up thinking as you did...but my Navy career showed me that people are basically the same all over the world, good ones, bad ones, whatever - we've ALL got the same range of good and bad in us. My career taught me to RESPECT them...especially after having lived in poverty beyond anything that we see here in America. I would do you a world of good if you learned to do the same.

 

[Glen Contrarian]

In what way did your wife pay for her violation of US Law? It's great that she is a productive member of society, but she did break the law and there should be a punishment for that.

Sounds to me like you need to take that up with the ghost of Reagan who allowed the illegals to stay and become citizens without punishment.

 

[Rentoc]

And you're full of it. Guy, I also used to work for immigration - USCIS - and if you actually got off your butt and got to know the (legal and illegal) immigrant community, you'd find that the vast majority of them had no real clue about our welfare system before they got here.

Here's a fer-instance: the third-largest immigrant community in America is the Filipino community, after the Hispanic and the Chinese. Over the past four years, nine of my wife's family has immigrated to America - after waiting twenty-five freaking years - and not a single one of them has drawn welfare. One brother and his wife and kids did get food stamps for a few months just to get by, but got off them as soon as they could. Why? Because to MOST immigrants, such are a matter of SHAME, because they see taking handouts as being no better than the squatters in the third-world countries they came from. Many of them - like my nephew who just graduated Boot Camp two weeks ago at Great Lakes Naval Station - join our military and become part of our very best.

I've watched the immigrant dream come true, again and again and again. I watched them bust their butts harder than my fellow Americans, year in and year out. As far as I'm concerned, someone who comes to America and becomes a citizens the hard way, the right way, truly EARNS their citizenship - which is something that no natural-born American can claim...and so often they're MORE patriotic than most of the rest of us...because people tend to cherish a thing they earned the hard way more than those who were born with that thing.

In other words, you need to have the same experience that I did. I grew up thinking as you did...but my Navy career showed me that people are basically the same all over the world, good ones, bad ones, whatever - we've ALL got the same range of good and bad in us. My career taught me to RESPECT them...especially after having lived in poverty beyond anything that we see here in America. I would do you a world of good if you learned to do the same.

I too have seen the world shipmate.

I also know many people who have LEGALLY immigrated into this country. I agree with much of what you said. Yes, the heroes I served with who were from other countries were VERY proud of earning their citizenship. I was in Cuba in '94/'95. I saw first hand what the "progressives" from INS and the SSA were doing with the Haitians and Cubans in the camps there. Teaching them about Food Stamps and Social Security benefits and how to get money for nothing. I don't put LEGAL immigrants down for getting some help, hell, my wife applied for food stamps (unknown to me) while I was deployed. There used to be many service members on them in the '80's and '90's (especially during the Clinton years).

I am talking about the ILLEGIAL immigrants who shouldn't be here to begin with and who we are giving tons of money to just because they crossed OUR border in time for mama to calf out. Those people need to be taken off the dole and sent packing. I have absolutely zero problems with LEGAL immigrants.

 

[Harman]

Immigrants (being comprised of People of Color) have more children

THus, the deserve and receive more public services

If you want community outreach then have more children

 

[Glen Contrarian]

I too have seen the world shipmate.

I also know many people who have LEGALLY immigrated into this country. I agree with much of what you said. Yes, the heroes I served with who were from other countries were VERY proud of earning their citizenship. I was in Cuba in '94/'95. I saw first hand what the "progressives" from INS and the SSA were doing with the Haitians and Cubans in the camps there. Teaching them about Food Stamps and Social Security benefits and how to get money for nothing. I don't put LEGAL immigrants down for getting some help, hell, my wife applied for food stamps (unknown to me) while I was deployed. There used to be many service members on them in the '80's and '90's (especially during the Clinton years).

I am talking about the ILLEGIAL immigrants who shouldn't be here to begin with and who we are giving tons of money to just because they crossed OUR border in time for mama to calf out. Those people need to be taken off the dole and sent packing. I have absolutely zero problems with LEGAL immigrants.

And what you're doing is looking at what happened with Haitians and Cubans and ASSUMING that this is what is done all the time for everyone coming to America. Just because the INS and SSA did that for them doesn't mean that they do it for everyone, does it?

FYI, your claim that many service members were on food stamps "especially during the Clinton years" is a cheap and false shot. I came in in '81, and life for the Navy was a heck of a lot better during the Clinton years than it was during Reagan's '82 recession, the S&L crisis in '87, and particularly just after the Soviet Union fell. In one year Bremerton went from being the #1 place in America to live (I think it was 'Fortune' that said it) to being a ghost town due to the cuts during the Bush 41 administration.

Now, when it comes to illegal immigrants, what you're forgetting is that they're PEOPLE...almost all of whom are regular people trying to find a safe place to raise a family. Yeah, there are some bad ones, just like there are some bad LEGAL residents (the 9/11 hijackers had legal U.S. visas). Problem is, y'all are somehow thinking that we'll just go door-to-door ("papers please") to root out all the 11M illegals (and their families, according to Trump). That's nothing more than a conservative's wet dream - and is every bit as imaginary...not to mention that even the strongly-conservative Cato Institute and Chamber of Commerce both point out that such an action would be strongly detrimental to our economy.

If you want to solve the illegal immigration problem, it's not going to happen that way. And it won't help to try to make it hard on the ones living here...because by doing so, by preventing them from having access to paying jobs, what happens? Do they go home? NO. Instead, they turn to crime...and then you've made the problem even worse than it was before. There is one way and one way ONLY to solve the illegal immigration policy - to do what is necessary to build Central America's economies up to the point where they're nearly as good (and as relatively safe and trusted) as our own...and if this is done, the people won't want to leave. Otherwise, they will always find ways here...and all the walls on the planet won't stop them.

 

[Rentoc]

And what you're doing is looking at what happened with Haitians and Cubans and ASSUMING that this is what is done all the time for everyone coming to America. Just because the INS and SSA did that for them doesn't mean that they do it for everyone, does it?

FYI, your claim that many service members were on food stamps "especially during the Clinton years" is a cheap and false shot. I came in in '81, and life for the Navy was a heck of a lot better during the Clinton years than it was during Reagan's '82 recession, the S&L crisis in '87, and particularly just after the Soviet Union fell. In one year Bremerton went from being the #1 place in America to live (I think it was 'Fortune' that said it) to being a ghost town due to the cuts during the Bush 41 administration.

Now, when it comes to illegal immigrants, what you're forgetting is that they're PEOPLE...almost all of whom are regular people trying to find a safe place to raise a family. Yeah, there are some bad ones, just like there are some bad LEGAL residents (the 9/11 hijackers had legal U.S. visas). Problem is, y'all are somehow thinking that we'll just go door-to-door ("papers please") to root out all the 11M illegals (and their families, according to Trump). That's nothing more than a conservative's wet dream - and is every bit as imaginary...not to mention that even the strongly-conservative Cato Institute and Chamber of Commerce both point out that such an action would be strongly detrimental to our economy.

If you want to solve the illegal immigration problem, it's not going to happen that way. And it won't help to try to make it hard on the ones living here...because by doing so, by preventing them from having access to paying jobs, what happens? Do they go home? NO. Instead, they turn to crime...and then you've made the problem even worse than it was before. There is one way and one way ONLY to solve the illegal immigration policy - to do what is necessary to build Central America's economies up to the point where they're nearly as good (and as relatively safe and trusted) as our own...and if this is done, the people won't want to leave. Otherwise, they will always find ways here...and all the walls on the planet won't stop them.

No sir, it's not a "cheap and false shot". It is VERY true, Clinton was the worst thing to happen to the US Armed Forces until our current POTUS. The Marine Corps went from 300k active to less than 175k but deployment cycles didn't change. We basically didn't get a pay raise for 8 years, pretty much the same as the current members. His budgets resulted in a much lower retirement for you and me, and that is the truth.

now back to the actual topic

I understand that they are "people" but I don't care. If they come into this country illegally, then they need to be removed. THEY HAVE BROKEN THE LAW!! Solving the illegal immigration problem starts with ensuring that all the laws concerning immigration are enforced 100% of the time. Sanctuary cities need to be punished, ICE needs to be ALLOWED to find the criminals and we need to make sure they do not come back. WE NEED A FENCE. Please don't give me the bs argument about ladders. The fence in SoCal works where it was actually built.

It is not the role of the US to fix the economies of Central America. It is the responsibility of those governments and the people who live there. It is the responsibility of our government to DEFEND OUR BORDERS, not invite invasion in the process of "fundamentally transforming the United States of America". This is all about votes. Get them here, give them money and amnesty and then they can vote, and just who do you think 80% will vote for? Duh!!

Your view is slanted, you are a Progressive and you have a vested interest in the process. I realize it takes a VERY long time to become a legal citizen and we should look to fix that, but that is not a VALID excuse to cheat the system. The bottom line is this, it is not right that we a paying millions of dollars for and to ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS. I don't care what country they have come from. I don't care if it is simply overstaying a VISA, if they are here illegally they have to go, if they have citizen children they have to make a decision concerning those children. Period, end of sentence.

 

[zip]

This may come as a shock to you, but immigrants - illegal or otherwise - do NOT come to America for food stamps or welfare. If you knew the immigrant community half as well as I do - having lived among them for about half my life - you'd know that already. When they come to America, hardly any of them even know what welfareis. I suggest that you stop making sweeping assumptions as to why people come to America.

And when it comes to the number of children, that has much less to do with "I'm an alien!" and a whole lot more to do with poverty...or haven't you realized yet that poor people tend to have a whole lot more kids than rich people?

If you read everything carefully you will see that it is you making assumptions, you are putting words in my mouth. For instance, I did not address income and family size at all. But I wish you well.

 

[Glen Contrarian]

No sir, it's not a "cheap and false shot". It is VERY true, Clinton was the worst thing to happen to the US Armed Forces until our current POTUS. The Marine Corps went from 300k active to less than 175k but deployment cycles didn't change. We basically didn't get a pay raise for 8 years, pretty much the same as the current members. His budgets resulted in a much lower retirement for you and me, and that is the truth.

If it wasn't a "cheap and false shot", then it sure as heck was an uninformed shot made by someone who didn't even try to check to see if what they believed was true. For instance, try reading this paper about the Post Cold War defense budget reduction - it was written at the Naval Postgraduate School in 1993 and shows the drawdown began in 1991.

What's more, you made the claim that more military went on food stamps under Clinton, but you provided no proof thereof. I looked around, and I could find no year-to-year comparison of military on food stamps...but I did find the below:



Compare that to the FACT that our military did not get pay CUTS - every single year we got a pay raise, and we haven't had high inflation since the early 1980's. Adjusted for inflation:



So...NO, Clinton didn't drive millions of military families to food stamps. What's a lot more likely is that you personally despise Clinton and wanted to believe the worst of him. And FYI, he's far from my favorite president - I personally give Bush 41 more credit than Clinton for the 1990's economic boom...but that doesn't mean that your claim is accurate in the least.

now back to the actual topic

I understand that they are "people" but I don't care. If they come into this country illegally, then they need to be removed. THEY HAVE BROKEN THE LAW!! Solving the illegal immigration problem starts with ensuring that all the laws concerning immigration are enforced 100% of the time. Sanctuary cities need to be punished, ICE needs to be ALLOWED to find the criminals and we need to make sure they do not come back. WE NEED A FENCE. Please don't give me the bs argument about ladders. The fence in SoCal works where it was actually built.

Ain't gonna work, guy. Do you really want a modern-day Berlin Wall, all across our borders? Ain't gonna work. Why? Because they build freaking TUNNELS, and instead of 'only' smuggling drugs, they'll smuggle illegal aliens through the tunnels, too. Wanna stop the illegal immigration? Make their economies almost as prosperous, almost as safe and trustworthy as our own, and they'll stay home. If that doesn't happen, they will come. Period.

It is not the role of the US to fix the economies of Central America. It is the responsibility of those governments and the people who live there. It is the responsibility of our government to DEFEND OUR BORDERS, not invite invasion in the process of "fundamentally transforming the United States of America".

Picture this, guy - you're in a third-world nation. You're raising your family in grinding poverty, and you see NO way out as long as you stay there. You see some of the people you know encouraging their daughters into prostitution just to be able to eat. You see the incredible corruption, and there isn't a damn thing you can do about it...because if you try to do something, you'll disappear...and so will your family. But on the other side of that border, you know you can raise your family in safety. You might be an 'illegal alien', but you know your family, your children, will be relatively safe and there's a lot less of a chance they'll go hungry.

So that's your ONLY choice: keep your family where it is NOT safe, where your daughters might well wind up in the sex trade, where you canNOT fight the corruption because to do so is risking your family's lives...OR you can sneak across that border and raise your children in a place where they might actually grow up. Given that choice, do you really think that you as a dad would give a flying flip about "oh, no, that's ILLEGAL!!!"? When it comes to giving your CHILDREN a better chance to actually GROW UP to adulthood, ANY good dad will do what he has to do to give his kids the best chance he can...and if that means breaking your oh-so-holy immigration law, so be it.

And it's not just here...or haven't you been watching the exodus of Syrians into Europe? It's been all over the news...and it's the same old story, as old as humanity itself: if life is hard and dangerous in one place, the people WILL go to where they believe life is less hard and less dangerous. The ONLY thing that stops them is for their home to somehow become as safe and prosperous as that other place.

 

[Glen Contrarian]

This is all about votes. Get them here, give them money and amnesty and then they can vote, and just who do you think 80% will vote for? Duh!!

Bull****. When people sneak across the border, do you really think that what's going through their minds is, "Gee, I wanna sneak into America so I can vote for Obama!"?

Your view is slanted, you are a Progressive and you have a vested interest in the process. I realize it takes a VERY long time to become a legal citizen and we should look to fix that, but that is not a VALID excuse to cheat the system. The bottom line is this, it is not right that we a paying millions of dollars for and to ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS. I don't care what country they have come from. I don't care if it is simply overstaying a VISA, if they are here illegally they have to go, if they have citizen children they have to make a decision concerning those children. Period, end of sentence.

Again, Bull****. You're starting from a prejudiced viewpoint yourself: "You're a progressive so your view doesn't count." Hate to tell you this, guy, but if you want a nation where everyone thinks the same thing, then go to North Korea.

NOW, listen to some COMMON SENSE backed up by myth-busting, courtesy of the QUITE-conservative Cato Institute...and THEN get a clue on how to fix illegal immigration, again, courtesy of the Cato Institute:

Texas Republican Rep. Mike McCaul’s new Secure Our Borders First Act would amass dubious technologies at the border — fences and other security gimmicks that will have little impact on an already trivial flow of unlawful immigrants. Instead of beefing up security, a guest worker visa program could decrease illegal immigration even further. History provides a prime example.

In 1953, there were about 2 million illegal immigrants from Mexico in the United States. By 1955, the number had fallen 90 percent and the cross-border flow nearly ceased — all while the number of Border Patrol agents actually dropped. This turnaround was achieved by the expansion of the so-called “Bracero” guest worker visa program.

After the expansion, Mexican workers learned that they could get a work visa easily. The visa allowed American farmers to legally hire migrant workers with minimum government oversight. Border Patrol helped by handing illegal immigrants a Bracero visa at their worksites. Many times, Border Patrol even brought the workers to the border so they could take one step into Mexico and immediately into the U.S. legally — a process dubbed “walking around the statute.”

Once Mexican migrants realized it was simple and cheap to get a visa and American farmers realized they could hire all of the legal migrant workers they demanded, the illegal immigrant market virtually disappeared. At this point, Border Patrol and immigration enforcement focused on those few illegal immigrants that remained — a job made much easier, because Bracero shrunk their numbers so dramatically.

Bracero was ended in 1965, due primarily to opposition from labor unions. As a result, the number of illegal immigrants shot up after that year. This deprived American businesses of a legal way to hire migrants, and migrants of a safe and legal way to enter, ushering in the modern age of illegal immigration.

Yeah, I love the unions - I strongly support them. But this was one instance where they screwed up.

But you know what? I betcha you're going to ignore all the above. Why? Because it doesn't say what you want to hear...and the refusal to hear the other side is what makes this a tragedy.

 

[Rentoc]

1. If it wasn't a "cheap and false shot", then it sure as heck was an uninformed shot made by someone who didn't even try to check to see if what they believed was true.
2. What's more, you made the claim that more military went on food stamps under Clinton, but you provided no proof thereof. I looked around, and I could find no year-to-year comparison of military on food stamps...but I did find the below:
3. Compare that to the FACT that our military did not get pay CUTS - every single year we got a pay raise, and we haven't had high inflation since the early 1980's. Adjusted for inflation:
4. So...NO, Clinton didn't drive millions of military families to food stamps. What's a lot more likely is that you personally despise Clinton and wanted to believe the worst of him. And FYI, he's far from my favorite president - I personally give Bush 41 more credit than Clinton for the 1990's economic boom...but that doesn't mean that your claim is accurate in the least.

1. and 2. Everything I stated regarding these comments is based on my personal experience. Those 8 years were VERY tough on the Marine Corps, I deployed more times than I can remember and I know for a fact that several junior Marines were on food stamps, as I stated before, my wife even applied for them and received them while I was deployed (I wouldn't let her when I wasn't).

3. I didn't say we got pay cuts, I said we basically didn't get a pay raise for 8 years. It was worse under this President, but I do remember 2% pay raises several times.

4. You are correct, I do despise President Clinton. He was a draft dodger and he stated that he loathed the Military. I know several Marines that were on the Camp David/White House detail and they have stated to me that both he and his wife treated all servicemen and women like trash. However, my personal feelings about the man do not change the facts that he used Defense cuts to increase domestic spending (aka handouts).

 

[Rentoc]

1. Do you really want a modern-day Berlin Wall, all across our borders?

2. Ain't gonna work. Why? Because they build freaking TUNNELS[/URL], and instead of 'only' smuggling drugs, they'll smuggle illegal aliens through the tunnels, too.

3. Wanna stop the illegal immigration? Make their economies almost as prosperous, almost as safe and trustworthy as our own, and they'll stay home. If that doesn't happen, they will come. Period.

4. Picture this, guy - you're in a third-world nation. You're raising your family in grinding poverty, and you see NO way out as long as you stay there. You see some of the people you know encouraging their daughters into prostitution just to be able to eat. You see the incredible corruption, and there isn't a damn thing you can do about it...because if you try to do something, you'll disappear...and so will your family. But on the other side of that border, you know you can raise your family in safety. You might be an 'illegal alien', but you know your family, your children, will be relatively safe and there's a lot less of a chance they'll go hungry.
So that's your ONLY choice: keep your family where it is NOT safe, where your daughters might well wind up in the sex trade, where you canNOT fight the corruption because to do so is risking your family's lives...OR you can sneak across that border and raise your children in a place where they might actually grow up. Given that choice, do you really think that you as a dad would give a flying flip about "oh, no, that's ILLEGAL!!!"? When it comes to giving your CHILDREN a better chance to actually GROW UP to adulthood, ANY good dad will do what he has to do to give his kids the best chance he can...and if that means breaking your oh-so-holy immigration law, so be it.

5. And it's not just here...or haven't you been watching the exodus of Syrians into Europe? It's been all over the news...and it's the same old story, as old as humanity itself: if life is hard and dangerous in one place, the people WILL go to where they believe life is less hard and less dangerous. The ONLY thing that stops them is for their home to somehow become as safe and prosperous as that other place.

1. Yes, because it's called SECURING THE BORDER.
2. BS! In this day and age, with all the technology that we possess, there is a way to make a fence/wall that is secure. Build it, man it and dare them to try.
3. The answer to your scenario in this is simple. REMOVE THE EASY OPTION OF WALKING ACCROSS THE BORDER! Build the damn wall, enforce the laws on the books. Make if VERY difficult, if not impossible to illegally enter this country and/or overstay VISAs and that option is removed.
5. Yes, I have seen what is going on and I'm sorry, I don't really care about that. I care about my country and my borders. If we had the balls to go get ISIS then that problem in the Mideast and Europe would not exist.

 

[Rentoc]

1. Bull****. When people sneak across the border, do you really think that what's going through their minds is, "Gee, I wanna sneak into America so I can vote for Obama!"?

2. Again, Bull****. You're starting from a prejudiced viewpoint yourself: "You're a progressive so your view doesn't count." Hate to tell you this, guy, but if you want a nation where everyone thinks the same thing, then go to North Korea.

3. In 1953, there were about 2 million illegal immigrants from Mexico in the United States. By 1955, the number had fallen 90 percent and the cross-border flow nearly ceased — all while the number of Border Patrol agents actually dropped[/B]. This turnaround was achieved by the expansion of the so-called “Bracero” guest worker visa program.

After the expansion, Mexican workers learned that they could get a work visa easily. The visa allowed American farmers to legally hire migrant workers with minimum government oversight. Border Patrol helped by handing illegal immigrants a Bracero visa at their worksites. Many times, Border Patrol even brought the workers to the border so they could take one step into Mexico and immediately into the U.S. legally — a process dubbed “walking around the statute.”

Once Mexican migrants realized it was simple and cheap to get a visa and American farmers realized they could hire all of the legal migrant workers they demanded, the illegal immigrant market virtually disappeared. At this point, Border Patrol and immigration enforcement focused on those few illegal immigrants that remained — a job made much easier, because Bracero shrunk their numbers so dramatically.

Bracero was ended in 1965, due primarily to opposition from labor unions. As a result, the number of illegal immigrants shot up after that year. This deprived American businesses of a legal way to hire migrants, and migrants of a safe and legal way to enter, ushering in the modern age of illegal immigration.

But you know what? I betcha you're going to ignore all the above. Why? Because it doesn't say what you want to hear...and the refusal to hear the other side is what makes this a tragedy.

1. I never said the illegals were coming here primarily to vote. What I said was "This is all about votes. Get them here, give them money and amnesty and then they can vote, and just who do you think 80% will vote for? Duh!!" It's what our President and his progressive agenda is. He said he was going to fundamentally change the US, this is one step in accomplishing that.
2. I don't want a nation where everyone thinks the same way and while I didn't state it properly what I meant was that you are biased due to your family experience. You have admitted that your wife was an illegal and you excuse it for whatever reason you have. Yes, I know President Reagan "pardoned" her and many many more, but that doesn't change the fact that you are biased.
3. What happened in 1953 through 1965 is kinda irrelevant to today. Yes, it appears as though we made a mistake in ending a program that was working, HOWEVER, it still does not change the fact that we have a huge problem on our southern border and have had one for some time now.

 

[Glen Contrarian]

1. and 2. Everything I stated regarding these comments is based on my personal experience. Those 8 years were VERY tough on the Marine Corps, I deployed more times than I can remember and I know for a fact that several junior Marines were on food stamps, as I stated before, my wife even applied for them and received them while I was deployed (I wouldn't let her when I wasn't).

That's the problem - you're basing your perception on your personal experience and upon what you were told by those around you, but not on the overall numbers. You're looking at what you experienced and are assuming that if it was that way for you and yours, then it must have been the same way military-wide. That's called a "broad-brush" logical fallacy.

3. I didn't say we got pay cuts, I said we basically didn't get a pay raise for 8 years. It was worse under this President, but I do remember 2% pay raises several times.

And what happens to the standard of living of the troops when the military "only" gets a 2% pay raise. If the rate of inflation is about 2% (sometimes a little more, sometimes a little less)? NOTHING.

4. You are correct, I do despise President Clinton. He was a draft dodger and he stated that he loathed the Military. I know several Marines that were on the Camp David/White House detail and they have stated to me that both he and his wife treated all servicemen and women like trash. However, my personal feelings about the man do not change the facts that he used Defense cuts to increase domestic spending (aka handouts).

1. I want you to show me a reference saying that Clinton "loathed the military".

2. I'd rather work for a draft dodger than for a freaking chickenhawk like Bush 43 and Cheney were. Yeah, Bush 43 did serve as a pilot, but in a boutique squadron that never left America...hell, he never stepped outside our borders before he began running for president.

At least a draft dodger knows what he believes and stands for it...whereas chickenhawks are SO "pro-military" for the military that they themselves were never a real part of. They're SO eager to send men into harm's way, but they themselves wouldn't do it. If anything, you yourself should despise Bush, Cheney, Rush, and every other conservative chickenhawk FAR more than those peaceniks who believe that diplomacy isn't a synonym for appeasement.

And one more thing - our invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq - did we accomplish them quickly and effectively? Sure. And we did it with the military that was largely built under Clinton.

 

[Glen Contrarian]

1. Yes, because it's called SECURING THE BORDER.
2. BS! In this day and age, with all the technology that we possess, there is a way to make a fence/wall that is secure. Build it, man it and dare them to try.
3. The answer to your scenario in this is simple. REMOVE THE EASY OPTION OF WALKING ACCROSS THE BORDER! Build the damn wall, enforce the laws on the books. Make if VERY difficult, if not impossible to illegally enter this country and/or overstay VISAs and that option is removed.
5. Yes, I have seen what is going on and I'm sorry, I don't really care about that. I care about my country and my borders. If we had the balls to go get ISIS then that problem in the Mideast and Europe would not exist.

1, 2, and 3: You seem to be of the perception that we don't have any security at all at our border, that all one has to do is simply "walk across the border". How about educating yourself on that point and get back to me.

4: That's a logical fallacy - I told you why the people come here and showed you that it's the same elsewhere, and it's been true all through human history...and you dodge the point by claiming in so many words, "well, ha-rumph, that's not America over there so it doesn't count". You need to get a clue that people are people are people, whether they're over there or over here.

And it looks as if you're one of those who pretends that spending yet more of our nation's blood and tens of billions MORE in taxpayer dollars by going into Iraq and Syria AGAIN is somehow a solution...without grasping that the people there see us as a "Christian" nation invading Islamic nations yet again, and would give more support to ISIS...

...and yet again we would find out why it is that Bush 41 (whom I hold to have been a very good president) didn't want to continue on to Baghdad in the first Gulf War - there's NO VIABLE EXIT STRATEGY. We'd get stuck there AGAIN, and more of our fellow military would come home in flag-draped coffins...for what? To give the Right another testosterone rush, rah-rah-rah we're-number-one oo-rah? The people THERE need to figure things out for THEMSELVES - it does America no good to spend more blood, more tens of billions of taxpayer dollars to go where there's no viable goal, and particularly no viable exit strategy.

 

[Glen Contrarian]

1. I never said the illegals were coming here primarily to vote. What I said was "This is all about votes. Get them here, give them money and amnesty and then they can vote, and just who do you think 80% will vote for? Duh!!" It's what our President and his progressive agenda is. He said he was going to fundamentally change the US, this is one step in accomplishing that.

What you don't get is that immigrants - legal and illegal - see that one side tries to understand them and realizes that when they succeed, the nation as a whole is better off...while the other side is increasingly xenophobic against all immigrants, illegal AND legal. For all the faults of the Democrats, they see the xenophobia of the GOP...and that more than anything else drives the generally socially-conservative immigrants to the Democrats. We're not attracting them to us - you're DRIVING them to us.

And yeah, I get that you yourself don't have a problem with legal immigrants...but all too many of your fellow conservatives DO, including here on DP. And it doesn't really matter that you yourself strongly support legal immigration, because all it takes is for the immigrants to see the support by the GOP for crass xenophobes like Trump...and they associate the whole of the GOP with him. Like I said, y'all are driving them to us.

2. I don't want a nation where everyone thinks the same way and while I didn't state it properly what I meant was that you are biased due to your family experience. You have admitted that your wife was an illegal and you excuse it for whatever reason you have. Yes, I know President Reagan "pardoned" her and many many more, but that doesn't change the fact that you are biased.

Again, bull****. Are you going to claim that because she was once an illegal immigrant who got her citizenship several years before I met her, that I should have rejected her for that? Are you going to claim that because she broke that law, that she and I are automatically somehow eager to open the doors of illegal immigration wide?

FYI, if we'd wanted, instead of waiting the entire 25 years for her brothers and their family members to arrive, we could've paid for them to come here on a tour ten or even fifteen years earlier - we could have saved them ten or fifteen years...but we didn't.

So you can take your claim that I'm somehow biased and do stuff with it that I can't recommend on DP. Again, YOU are the one making an ASSUMPTION that I'm somehow biased based on something that my wife did long before we ever met. You know as well as I do what we were taught about assuming. Do yourself a favor and stop assuming.

3. What happened in 1953 through 1965 is kinda irrelevant to today. Yes, it appears as though we made a mistake in ending a program that was working, HOWEVER, it still does not change the fact that we have a huge problem on our southern border and have had one for some time now.

Is it irrelevant? It worked once - that doesn't mean that it would work today...but does that automatically mean that it would NOT work? Of course not. Walls won't work (remember, tunnels), so why not try to do what really did work before? What would be wrong with that?

Nothing...except that it doesn't fulfill the "I'm-a-real-he-man" need for some conservatives.

 

[Harman]

Top 10 Reasons Why The U.S. Needs Comprehensive Immigration Reform | ThinkProgress