You didn't have to buy your son a graphing calculator. Are you saying that if one of the poor in your son's class needed a graphing calculator that he couldn't get one somehow? The school doesn't have any programs to help him get one? His Church doesn't have any programs to help him get one? I'm betting that if they had really tried they would have been able to get him one for free, while you had to pay 150 dollars for your son's. Hell, if he would have started a gofundme page for the calculator he would have probably collected five thousand dollars.
They dictate what they demand, and they run out of money before they get it all. That makes them less productive in the long run, and it makes our economy less prosperous in the long run, but it means the wealthy get a hefty population of poor people to exploit.
If the school has little funding, it can not afford programs that are not part of esential school functions.
Church programs only work if if there is any connection between the church and the community.
Charity requires a obligation for caring for others that seems to be coroded by our cultures promotion of individualism
Well, that's a load of crap and a bunch of conjecture.
One can only conjecture the circumstances of poor Americans unless one has access to social history
I didn't say that. Don't turn into a lefty on me, twisting my words. I merely said that poor people do all have the opportunity to make something of themselves. Oprah Winfrey is just one example. There are many examples and many of them are people you wouldn't even recognize their names but there are still many where you would recognize their names. Why on Earth would Oprah have had a successful life? There was no reason for her not growing up poor and living a life dependent on welfare. Actually, there was a reason - she was Oprah and she wanted a better life than living in the swamp.
she was Oprah and she wanted a better life than living in the swamp
You didn't have to buy your son a graphing calculator. Are you saying that if one of the poor in your son's class needed a graphing calculator that he couldn't get one somehow? The school doesn't have any programs to help him get one? His Church doesn't have any programs to help him get one? I'm betting that if they had really tried they would have been able to get him one for free, while you had to pay 150 dollars for your son's. Hell, if he would have started a gofundme page for the calculator he would have probably collected five thousand dollars.
That's exactly what I am saying.Are you saying that if one of the poor in your son's class needed a graphing calculator that he couldn't get one somehow?
Absolutely not. In fact.. the school DOESN"T EVEN PROVIDE THE TEACHERS WITH ONE.The school doesn't have any programs to help him get one?
No. in fact the church does all it can to service food to the poor in the areaHis Church doesn't have any programs to help him get one?
And you would lose your bet.I'm betting that if they had really tried they would have been able to get him one for free, while you had to pay 150 dollars for your son's
.Hell, if he would have started a gofundme page for the calculator he would have probably collected five thousand dollars
My parents were poor Americans and sometimes got social assistance. I was poor when I was young. I've worked with poor Americans for 40 years and I work with them now. Their lifestyle keeps them in a cycle of poverty. They don't know how to get out of the quicksand because that is all they know. It has nothing to do with the rich. It has to do with themselves. They have many, many opportunities to get out but they don't know how to take advantage of them. Often they don't even see them. But, most of the time they are too stupid and lazy to grab that tree branch and pull themselves out. Saving money or having a thousand dollars in the bank is considered a sin to them and they have lots of opportunities to save money. They just refuse to do it when they can.
You did say that.. Maybe you don't realize what you said.. but you said it.
Wait.. THATS all that has to happen? You just have to want a better life than living in the swamp? Golly gee.
You know what helped Oprah..? She won a full scholarship from the elks for college.
Nobody talks about the other applicants that were as good as here or almost as good as her for that one scholarship...
Think about it.
its not whether I had to buy or not..
Its the fact that as a rich person,, I COULD buy my son that calculator..while other kids did not have that advantage.
That's exactly what I am saying.
Absolutely not. In fact.. the school DOESN"T EVEN PROVIDE THE TEACHERS WITH ONE.
No. in fact the church does all it can to service food to the poor in the area
And you would lose your bet.
.
Wow.. you really are trying hard to be obtuse...
Wow.. lets tell every poor person in American to start a gofundme page and collect 5 thousand dollars a piece!!.. awesome. :roll:
And that's just one itty bitty example...
My son also has a laptop computer that he can hook to the internet and do his work anywhere. Meanwhile.. the other kids in his class have to arrange time to use the schools antiquated computers in their lab. 10 computers shared BY THE WHOLE SCHOOL..
I pay for private coaches that help him in sports.
I could pay for private tutors if he needed help in a subject. I will be paying for private classes for prep for the SAT and the books and tests that go with that.
Sorry.. these things are just not that easily available to each and every poor student in my sons school.
I've worked decades with poor folks too. What you are talking about is the vast minority of poor people.
As a far as saving money or having a thousand dollar in the bank as a sin? I don't believe you even understand why saving.. even when the could.. is difficult for a poor person. You have no understanding of the social network that poor people need to keep up with to survive.
How on Earth could she win a full scholarship? Perhaps because she earned it? And, what about all those middle class white kids who didn't win the scholarship?
I don't really like debating with you about this because I am for not letting the lazy ass bums who don't want to work or contribute to society have an easier life while I am for the truly needy (such as the disabled) have a much better life than they do now. We need to make life easier and better for those who truly need it and want to get ahead and to hell with leeches who just want to bleed society dry and be takers forever. We need to lift those up who we can lift up with the goal of spending now to save social dollars later. Many on the left just want continued support from the government generation after generation after generation. And, we should not go after the small business owner with stupid things like large increases in the minimum wage.
I have worked with the poor for decades and most of the ones I have worked with don't have a clue how to get ahead. Just in the business I own now, I have had many of my workers ask for extra work (and I have been able to give it to them) to catch up on their bills. Once their bills are caught up it's back to them wanting to work less when they could have continued with the extra time and put some money in the bank. I have had several who work for me a bunch with no problems, waiting until their disability comes through and then it is time to quit. You aren't going to get rich collecting disability. There are many times where my workers claim they need more money and then when I ask them to take on more hours it's always excuse after excuse after excuse as to why they don't want to do it. I get real sick of it all. At another job I had about 20 years ago I had an employee who called in sick once per week and she came up to me one day telling me she needed a raise because she wasn't earning enough to pay her bills. I looked at her and told her she could give herself a $200 per month raise by working all the hours she was supposed to work in the first place. She just looked at me with a dazed expression on her face, walking away saying, "I never looked at it like that". I have seen numerous workers over the years collect several thousand dollars in tax refunds, only to piss the money away on stupid stuff, saving none of it.
She did earn it.
Tell me.. how many kids who ALSO worked hard.. and got good grades .. and were poor.. did not get that scholarship.
And right.. what about those middle class kids that did not get that scholarship? Maybe in other years.. THEY DID. And a ton of poor kids.. came close.. but no scholarship.. and instead it went to someone who could have paid for their school without a scholarship.
The problem is..
YOU START with the premise that anyone that is poor.. is a "lazy bum ass". who "is unwilling to take advantage of the opportunities afforded them".
I live in an ultra red state. Lots of folks here.. especially our legislature.. believe exactly as you do.. that if you are poor its because 1. You don't work hard enough 2. You want to be a leech.
Yet I just pointed out the advantage my children have over the poor kids in our school district. And why.. because those same legislators cut school funding.. to give a giant property tax cut to the wealthiest corporations in the area.
the Schools are so poor that the kids have to share textbooks.. I had to purchase a textbook for my child so he could have his own copy to take home.
sure.. we all have stories like that.. the point is.. it doesn;t represent the vast majority of the working poor.
and here is a few things that you might never have thought of..
So those people that worked extra hours for you.. but once caught up.. didn't? What you might not know is this:
1. they were able to get temporary child care to cover the time they were at work.. and that's why they could work those extra hours for a short time.. but if they had to pay for those hours longer.. work would not pay.
2. When you say. they worked with no problems.. they actually HAD problems.. hence they were going to get disability. they simply were not going to relate their medical problems to an employer that might decide to cut hours or let them go because they were a potential workers comp problem.
That's just two easy things wrong with your assumptions.
You make assumptions as well and most of those you mentioned are not the case at all. And, this is the way a vast majority of my workers have been for the decades I have managed over them at several different companies and several different places around the country. I have spent time with fellow managers from around the country as well and they all tell me the same stories so I have a hard time believing that me, and all of the managers I have talked with over the years, only represent those very few who do these things and everyone else is in the majority. Not too awful long ago I knew someone who kept on complaining and complaining about harassing phone calls she was getting. She owed around 3 thousand dollars in medical bills, I believe. Well, something happened and she got a settlement or something for right around 3 thousand dollars and she took that money and bought a huge big screen television and other equipment. She wanted to get the money out of her bank account as quickly as possible so that it wasn't taken. Now she's got a huge big screen television and bill collectors harassing her every day. Stupid.
Nope.. not making assumptions.. You are the one making huge assumptions.
Here is why...
You say its the vast majority of your workers.. I highly doubt that. I suppose its possible if you work in some industry that attracts a certain minority of low skilled workers that have such attitudes.
However.. basically.. you only notice those people that confirm your bias. I doubt that you and your managers grouse about the hard workers.. that just come to work and go home and you don't know anything about their spending habits or saving habits. I bet that doesn;t make the comment section around the water cooler.
Now.. that girl who loudly complained about being harassed by bill collectors.. She sticks out in your memory.. you will see here as representative of your workforce.. rather than all those other people that just go to work and come home.
Heck.. the likelihood is that you have middle and upper class workers there that don't have a savings account and are leveraged to the hilt.
Easy for you to say but I know my own people. I never said it was everyone. But, there is a definite majority that wouldn't know how to get ahead if someone gave them $50,000. And, I'm talking about all of the employees I have had in several different companies in a few different fields, in a few different parts of the country, and all of my fellow management people from several different companies in a few different fields, in a few different parts of the country.[/QUOTE
Well.. now you just changed the goal posts. We went from being lazy and stupid.. to now not knowing how to invest 50,000 properly. Cripes.. I would doubt you could find 10% of people that would KNOW how "to get ahead" if given 50,000 dollars. that's including rich folks as well. Cripes.. I see many of the physicians I work with would probably go out and buy a new truck.. or their wives would spend the money changing the color of the granite on their kitchen counter tops.
Look at the number of people that got themselves in trouble with the housing market.. look at the bankers that got their company into trouble.. so on and so forth. HECK.. look at how Chrysler and GM had to get a government bailout. Believe me.. poor business sense and money handling doesn;t just occur with poor people.
Heck.. look at how often Donald trump bankrupted a company?
The big difference is.. with poor people. the stakes are a lot higher.. and the repercussions are a lot worse than if you have a pile of Daddy's money to fall back on.
Well.. now you just changed the goal posts. We went from being lazy and stupid.. to now not knowing how to invest 50,000 properly. Cripes.. I would doubt you could find 10% of people that would KNOW how "to get ahead" if given 50,000 dollars. that's including rich folks as well. Cripes.. I see many of the physicians I work with would probably go out and buy a new truck.. or their wives would spend the money changing the color of the granite on their kitchen counter tops.
Look at the number of people that got themselves in trouble with the housing market.. look at the bankers that got their company into trouble.. so on and so forth. HECK.. look at how Chrysler and GM had to get a government bailout. Believe me.. poor business sense and money handling doesn;t just occur with poor people.
Heck.. look at how often Donald trump bankrupted a company?
The big difference is.. with poor people. the stakes are a lot higher.. and the repercussions are a lot worse than if you have a pile of Daddy's money to fall back on.
You misinterpreted what I said. Maybe we should just quit. I respect a lot of the posts you have made on this forum and I agree with many of them but, the road we seem to be going down here makes me think I am debating with a partisan lefty, which I know you are not. And, this thread seems to have gone way off course.
You misinterpreted what I said. Maybe we should just quit. I respect a lot of the posts you have made on this forum and I agree with many of them but, the road we seem to be going down here makes me think I am debating with a partisan lefty, which I know you are not. And, this thread seems to have gone way off course.
well..here is the thing I think you should think about. You know I am not a partisan lefty...intellectually you understand that I am a conservative
YET.. "the road we seem to be going here makes me think I am debating with a partisan lefty".
I would suggest that whats happening is that on some level.. you understand the point I am making and it makes you uncomfortable and thus psychologically you are trying to dismiss me as "being a lefty".
Studies have found that when people are given facts and logic that contradict their core values/beliefs.. that this activates parts of the brain that feel pain. Yep.. in a way they feel actual pain.. and what happens is that when people are shown actual FACTS that contradict their beliefs.. instead of believing the facts... they are actually MORE likely to believe what was just proven to be wrong.
well..here is the thing I think you should think about. You know I am not a partisan lefty...intellectually you understand that I am a conservative
YET.. "the road we seem to be going here makes me think I am debating with a partisan lefty".
I would suggest that whats happening is that on some level.. you understand the point I am making and it makes you uncomfortable and thus psychologically you are trying to dismiss me as "being a lefty".
Studies have found that when people are given facts and logic that contradict their core values/beliefs.. that this activates parts of the brain that feel pain. Yep.. in a way they feel actual pain.. and what happens is that when people are shown actual FACTS that contradict their beliefs.. instead of believing the facts... they are actually MORE likely to believe what was just proven to be wrong.
There are examples of everything. I have talked many times in these forums (while debating with partisan lefties) that both sides can cherry pick facts. There is no doubt that what you say can apply to many people. However, you seem to totally dismiss the fact that what I say can also apply to many people.
There are examples of everything. I have talked many times in these forums (while debating with partisan lefties) that both sides can cherry pick facts. There is no doubt that what you say can apply to many people. However, you seem to totally dismiss the fact that what I say can also apply to many people.
Well.. you started with the "there are opportunities for the poor".. implying that the poor have the same opportunities for the rich and that being poor was simply because of their refusal to work hard, to take advantage of opportunities.
Now you say that is "many people". Well.. the poor are composed of the elderly.. most of whom can't work. Its composed of children, who can't work. its composed of disabled.. who can't work or who have difficulty working. So now discussing the poor.. we are down to a much smaller group.
So already.. the "many people" has become a few.
Then a large portion of those people work hard. take advantage of opportunities SUCH AS THEY EXIST.. yet still remain poor.
What you fail to realize is that what you describe is a minority of the poor. Yep.. there are some lazy poor folks out there. but its the vast minority.
That's just a fact when describing who "the poor" really are.
Well.. you started with the "there are opportunities for the poor".. implying that the poor have the same opportunities for the rich and that being poor was simply because of their refusal to work hard, to take advantage of opportunities.
Now you say that is "many people". Well.. the poor are composed of the elderly.. most of whom can't work. Its composed of children, who can't work. its composed of disabled.. who can't work or who have difficulty working. So now discussing the poor.. we are down to a much smaller group.
So already.. the "many people" has become a few.
Then a large portion of those people work hard. take advantage of opportunities SUCH AS THEY EXIST.. yet still remain poor.
What you fail to realize is that what you describe is a minority of the poor. Yep.. there are some lazy poor folks out there. but its the vast minority.
That's just a fact when describing who "the poor" really are.
Again, you are misrepresenting what I said. Of course there are poor (such as the disabled) who have no way out and we should treat them much better than we do now. And, I never said that all of the poor do not work hard. I realize that working at Walmart and McDonalds is much harder work than most of the rich do (pretty much been there, done that myself). But, there are many of the poor who are lazy. I did say that a whole lot of those poor people have no clue or no desire to get ahead. There are ways out of their hole and they either don't know how to take advantage of them or they have no desire to take advantage of opportunities that do pop up.
Speaking of myself as an example, when I was young I started out after high school working in a factory, actually making pretty damn good money for an 18 year old, and I actually made more money than my boss, believe it or not. We worked peacework and I lucked out getting a job that paid well. I realized that since I already made more money than my boss, that there was no long term future in this place. There was literally nothing more to move up to, money wise. Eventually this factory closed down long after I left. But, when the minimum wage was just $2.65 per hour and I was working a job that paid $8-$10 per hour back in the middle 70's, I quit to cook pizzas at Pizza Hut for that $2.65 per hour minimum wage because I had the determination to move up to assistant manager, manager, and hopefully beyond. My friends all told me that I was nuts. And, I did it. Sometimes you have to take a step backward in order to take two steps forward. I then moved my Pizza Hut experience into moving on to retail management and jobs that required me to relocate in order to move up the ladder, which I did too. I have lived in a few different areas around the country, working in a few different fields. Then I quit a few jobs and moved further and further up the ladder to the point where I had saved up enough money to put a down payment down on my own business. Many of the poor just won't do what is necessary to get ahead. They want to stay in their little spot on the planet and have wealth just radiate to them like a magnet. It doesn't work that way. You have to go out and get it because it is not just going to rain down on you. Sitting around waiting for the minimum wage to go up is only going to make you poor the rest of your life. There are opportunities for just about everyone. Any person who works at McDonalds can work their way up to shift supervisor, assistant manager, and beyond - everyone who has the desire. Many don't want to do it. What I describe is the majority of the poor, not the minority. I have seen many, many of these poor get huge tax refunds every year due to the EIC and they don't use the money for necessities or living expenses at all - they just piss the thousands of dollars away on stupid stuff.
Most of those poor elderly you refer to are people that squandered opportunities and money their whole lives. Many people just refuse to save, even when they can save. I have seen it almost every day for decades. You get a windfall of a few hundred or a few thousand dollars and you have to find a way to spend it, often times pissing the money away into nothingness. That's one of our biggest faults in society. Hell, many people have won lotteries, only to find out a few years later that they are bankrupt. Some sports stars and celebrities piss their money away into bankruptcy. We need budget and financial training in lower schools, high schools, and college and the courses should be mandatory, not elective.
Now you seem to be in a business where probably you deal more with middle class'rs than the very poor so, it's possible you are relying more on information you receive than actual experience but I have worked with those very poor for decades.
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?