Mexico decriminalizes small-scale drug possession

Why does everyone think this is supposedly an attempt to alleviate Cartel violence?

It is not.

This is just simply putting into paper what was more or less already the reality in Mexico.

The causation and the solution to cartel violence are both to be found in the U.S.

apdst said:

Capitulation, for sure. It's a sign of weakness and the cartels are going to exploit the hell out of it.

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What makes you think that cartels have any interest in seeing drugs be legalized?

Kandahar said:

What makes you think that cartels have any interest in seeing drugs be legalized?

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I don't think the cartels care, either way. They're going to control the market the way they always have, legal drugs, or no legal drugs. As I pointed out in an earlier thread, what are you going to do? Legalize murder and attach a surcharge to it?

apdst said:

I don't think the cartels care, either way. They're going to control the market the way they always have, legal drugs, or no legal drugs.

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What makes you think so? When has any major crime organization ever sold a legal product as their main line of business?

apdst said:

As I pointed out in an earlier thread, what are you going to do? Legalize murder and attach a surcharge to it?

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The difference is that a good many of the problems associated with drugs (e.g. overdosing, violence, drug-related theft) are CAUSED by their illegality and many others (e.g. addiction, sales to children) aren't exactly caused by illegality but are definitely made worse. On the other hand, murder is illegal because it IS the problem itself.

apdst said:

I don't think the cartels care, either way. They're going to control the market the way they always have, legal drugs, or no legal drugs. As I pointed out in an earlier thread, what are you going to do? Legalize murder and attach a surcharge to it?

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ohh of course.. everyone will continue to buy drugs from their illegal sources in shady deals instead of driving to the local retailer who attained their supply through legitimate channels.

How is it that the cartels would continue to control the product if they are cut out of the loop?

They are not needed to produce them, they are not needed to distribute them, and if drugs were ever to be legalized they sure as hell would not be who we turn to for our supply

apdst said:

I don't think the cartels care, either way. They're going to control the market the way they always have, legal drugs, or no legal drugs. As I pointed out in an earlier thread, what are you going to do? Legalize murder and attach a surcharge to it?

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How much is organized crime (cartels) involved in the alcohol market? It certainly was involved in it when it was illegal.

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Kandahar said:

What makes you think so? When has any major crime organization ever sold a legal product as their main line of business?

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There's a fairly good market, in the Southwest of US, that deals largely with various semi-automatic, pistol, full automatic, assault weapons that are technically 'legal' except for the fact the proper registration is not done on them. So there's one example, and while the various sellers don't seem to widely peddle their logo I am presuming it is quite well endowed in a organizational sense, while also illegal.

Metternich said:

There's a fairly good market, in the Southwest of US, that deals largely with various semi-automatic, pistol, full automatic, assault weapons that are technically 'legal' except for the fact the proper registration is not done on them. So there's one example, and while the various sellers don't seem to widely peddle their logo I am presuming it is quite well endowed in a organizational sense, while also illegal.

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What is a fairly good market? Are a lot of violent crimes committed trying to gain control of this market? Do you have a source for this?


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TOJ said:

What is a fairly good market? Are a lot of violent crimes committed trying to gain control of this market? Do you have a source for this?


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I'll just say that source I trust impeccably because, frankly, it's me. It's how I purchased my two weapons at any rate.

Are there violent crimes? Certainly, I haven't actually seen a gun duel break out but to believe that illegal activity doesn't beget more illegal activity would be one leap of faith I'm just not willing to put in a Earthly principle.

Do they fund criminal activities? I would give my cautious nodding of the head, but consider it just base speculation. All I can say is just ask anyone if they've been to the Glamis sand dunes and they'll know what I am getting at.

Mexico seems to be going down the tubes. Unfortunately Americans seem to be labeled racists if they dont agree with just letting millions in.

TOJ said:

How much is organized crime (cartels) involved in the alcohol market? It certainly was involved in it when it was illegal.

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The Dixie Mafia made millions from illegal alcohol in the 70's.

TOJ said:

What is a fairly good market? Are a lot of violent crimes committed trying to gain control of this market? Do you have a source for this?


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Guns are legal in the US. How much money is made and how many people get killed dealing with illegal firearms trafficing in the US?

Don't think that just because whiskey is legal that the moonshine industry just up and died.

Bill Helms, a respected merchant here in a town known as the moonshine capital of the world, insists he doesn't know what his customers do with all the sugar and plastic jugs he sells at his farm supply store.

But a federal and state investigation, dubbed Operation Lightning Strike, found that Helms Farmers Exchange sells an average of $1 million a year in supplies to moonshiners as part of a sophisticated criminal enterprise similar in makeup and scope to those employed by major drug dealers.

Raids Attack Mystique Of Moonshine Industry - The Washington Post | Encyclopedia.com

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Making and selling alcohol without a license is illegal. But even under centuries of federal surveillance, the moonshine industry has evolved from an illegal folk art to a big business involving dozens of suppliers, distillers, and distributors from Roanoke, Va., to Johnston County, N.C. Instead of small nailed-together tubs, today's mega-moonshiners use huge stainless stills that take up entire barns and produce hundreds of gallons of whiskey a day.

"I've maintained there's 50,000 gallons of untaxed liquor leaving southwest Virginia every year, and nobody's ever disputed that," says Jack Allen Powell, a retired revenuer who wrote a book about the business called "A Dying Art."

Moonshine flows - and feds crack down | csmonitor.com

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Where do you think more money is made, cocaine, or tobacco? Moonshine, or legal whiskey?

Of course the cartels want their product legalized.

Kandahar said:

What makes you think so? When has any major crime organization ever sold a legal product as their main line of business?



The difference is that a good many of the problems associated with drugs (e.g. overdosing, violence, drug-related theft) are CAUSED by their illegality and many others (e.g. addiction, sales to children) aren't exactly caused by illegality but are definitely made worse. On the other hand, murder is illegal because it IS the problem itself.

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Actually, if you've ever been a hospital worker, you'll know that you tend to get many times more patients in the typical American hospital being treated for the results of abuse of legal drugs than for abuse of illegal ones.

Metternich said:

There's a fairly good market, in the Southwest of US, that deals largely with various semi-automatic, pistol, full automatic, assault weapons that are technically 'legal' except for the fact the proper registration is not done on them. So there's one example, and while the various sellers don't seem to widely peddle their logo I am presuming it is quite well endowed in a organizational sense, while also illegal.

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Well, let's think about why a criminal enterprise would choose to engage in that particular business. Obviously they're doing something shady, or there would be no reason for the existence of a criminal infrastructure. In this case, they're doing it specifically to circumvent registration and they sell weapons to people who are also interested in circumventing registration for whatever reason. Since unregistered weapons ARE illegal, their product is illegal.

You never see criminal enterprises whose main business is, say, growing tomatoes. And for good reason: Why would a tomato grower have any need to be involved in a criminal enterprise?

Similarly, if drugs are legalized, there would no longer be a need for any criminal enterprise.

Oftencold said:

Actually, if you've ever been a hospital worker, you'll know that you tend to get many times more patients in the typical American hospital being treated for the results of abuse of legal drugs than for abuse of illegal ones.

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That comparison isn't really valid since certain drugs are inherently more dangerous in smaller amounts than others, and others may be more popular than others regardless of their legal status. I'm sure that a higher percentage of heroin users than alcohol users end up in the hospital.

My point is that the illegality of certain substances means that people rely on criminals to provide it...and the purity of the substance is often questionable. Most cases of drug overdose are a result of people taking too much of a substance because they didn't know how pure it was. If it was sold at a commercial establishment with proper regulation, that sort of information could easily be printed on the side of the package.

The solution I recommend, annexing Mexico?

apdst said:

Don't think that just because whiskey is legal that the moonshine industry just up and died.

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Geez the book on the moonshine business written by the revenuer mentioned in your article is entitled "A Dying Art"

:rofl

But hey lets play with some numbers from your quote just for fun.

50,000 gallons of moonshine every year, in a state that has a history steeped in making illegal moonshine, and is one of the largest producing states of moonshine, if not the largest.

Lets be conservative here and assume that your average moonshiner is in it to make a decent income, so lets set a target income of $300/week from his enterprise (peanuts in comparison to even small fry drug dealer).

I would say $30/gallon would be a generous estimate of how much he can profit per gallon of shine, so in order to make a paltry $300/week he would need produce and sell 10 gallons every week.

Taking that further 10 x 52 weeks = 520 gallons annually.

Now the total estimate for the state of Virginia is 50,000 gallons a year.. so lets divide this by the 520 annual gallons needed to sustain even a modest income: 50,000 / 520 = 96 people

Wow!! 96 people can support themselves (barely) from the Moonshine estimates in VA. yup you got us.. that problem is HUGE!! 96 people!!! yikes!

Metternich said:

I'll just say that source I trust impeccably because, frankly, it's me. It's how I purchased my two weapons at any rate.

Are there violent crimes? Certainly, I haven't actually seen a gun duel break out but to believe that illegal activity doesn't beget more illegal activity would be one leap of faith I'm just not willing to put in a Earthly principle.

Do they fund criminal activities? I would give my cautious nodding of the head, but consider it just base speculation. All I can say is just ask anyone if they've been to the Glamis sand dunes and they'll know what I am getting at.

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Yep, relative to drug dealing, it sounds like a hugh problem to me. :roll:


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