Libertarians and Liberals need to Unite

[MrWonka]

This whole Trump Nationalism thing is becoming very concerning to me. Trump referring to himself as a Nationalist is an attempt to normalize extremism. It's an attempt to get more normal people that would otherwise reject Nazis and full-blown White Nationalism to start using the same verbiage to describe themselves that the more extremists use. Once the common nomenclature is in place it becomes easier and easier for the extremists to make moderate more receptive to their ideas. While many Trump supporters may sadly have a lot in common with Nazis they recall what Nazis did and recognize them as evil. They, therefore, reject the notion that they have similar beliefs regardless of what the evidence says. By slowly getting Nazi terminology normalized they allow Nazis to more easily intermix and recruit those who would otherwise not be amenable to it.

This got me starting to think more about some on the left who have started to embrace the idea of Democratic Socialism. While I may agree with Bernie on many things, I would never classify myself as a socialist. I'm a firm believer in regulatory Capitalism or what I call Nash Capitalism. It has always bothered me that almost none of Bernie's actual policies really truly are what would normally be considered socialist yet for whatever reason he insists upon calling himself one. Thinking about Trump it occurs to me that it's at least a possibility that Bernie is trying to do something very similar to Trump. Trying to mainstream the terminology in order to make a transition to real socialism more plausible down the road. By getting more moderate liberals to start using words like Socialist to describe themselves that makes it easier for true socialists to intermix and recruit by making them seem like kindred spirits.

So long as Trump is the standard bearer for Capitalism, Capitalism is doomed. Sooner or later the blowback from Trump's election is going to send people fleeing towards Democrats. If Bernie Sanders wins the Democratic Nomination in 2020 I along with all moderate liberals and independents will have no choice but to support him in the general election given the dark and disgusting turn of the Republican party. Moderate Republicans have lost their party. The Republican party now belongs to Donald Trump, and if he manages to win again in 2020 any hope of ever getting it back is gone. The only way real conservatives can ever get back any semblance of control over the Republican party again is if he is decimated in 2020. He must be forcefully repudiated beyond any ability to make bull**** excuses for his failure.

In the meantime so long as Trump controls the Republican party we cannot afford to let the Democratic Party slip towards extremism too. I'm very concerned that the only way that happens is if the moderate conservatives and libertarians who understand what Trump represents and the danger he posses join us and keep things centered. Running a third party flyer like Kasich in the General isn't good enough. You may torpedo Trump, but you risk handing the reigns of the country over to another extremist on the left. Registering Democrat and voting in our primary to help secure a more centrist Liberal is really the only option. Obviously, it's going to be a Democrat and it will no doubt be a left-leaning candidate, but if you don't want to choose between Bernie and Trump the time to start thinking about how to avoid that is now.

 

[MrPeanut]

I don't get it. The vast majority of libertarians in the United States are right wing. If you believe in regulated capitalism why work with those that oppose the vast majority of regulations? Wouldn't a standard republican be closer to you than a right wing libertarian?

 

[Grokmaster]

The ENTIRE POINT of Libertarianism is LESS GOVERNMENT, especially LESS FEDERAL GOVERNMENT.


The is the EXACT OPPOSITE of liberals.

 

[Grand Mal]

The ENTIRE POINT of Libertarianism is LESS GOVERNMENT, especially LESS FEDERAL GOVERNMENT.


The is the EXACT OPPOSITE of liberals.

Educate yourself for the coming conflicts.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoliberalism

 

[DamnYankee]

The ENTIRE POINT of Libertarianism is LESS GOVERNMENT, especially LESS FEDERAL GOVERNMENT.


The is the EXACT OPPOSITE of liberals.

I don't think the OP understands the difference between the two and zeroed in on L-I-B-E-R and believes because the first five letters are the same, they must be alike. And these people want to run the country. Yeah...

 

[KLATTU]

The best description of libertarians came from one of the South Park guys.

something

" I F$$$g hate Republicans, but I really REALLY f$$$g hate Democrats"

About where i stand.

LAFF

 

[SonOfDaedalus]

The ENTIRE POINT of Libertarianism is LESS GOVERNMENT, especially LESS FEDERAL GOVERNMENT.


The is the EXACT OPPOSITE of liberals.

Is that why Republicans want to increase the military budget? Did liberals spend $2 Trillion in Iraq? The Texas anti-sodomy law that the conservatives on the SC refused to strike down but thankfully the liberals did, was that more less government?

You just talk about "less government" but government exploded under Reagan and Bush and now Trump. All Trump needs now is a war after his military build up and "I am a nationalist" claims.

No self-respecting libertarian would support Trump.

 

[Ikari]

Is that why Republicans want to increase the military budget? Did liberals spend $2 Trillion in Iraq? The Texas anti-sodomy law that the conservatives on the SC refused to strike down but thankfully the liberals did, was that more less government?

You just talk about "less government" but government exploded under Reagan and Bush and now Trump. All Trump needs now is a war after his military build up and "I am a nationalist" claims.

No self-respecting libertarian would support Trump.

Both arms of the Republocrat Oligarchy are Big Government, Big Spending, Big Deficit, Big Brother, Big War, Big Corporation parties.

 

[FirstTracksGirl]

I don't think libertarians and today's liberals would have very much in common to unite around except maybe one or two things.

 

[Grokmaster]

Educate yourself for the coming conflicts.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoliberalism

I'll pass on the " WIKI" lecture.

There is nothing "new" going on in Leftworld; they continue to seek to FORCE THEIR WORLCVIEW onto EVERYONE ELSE, via the courts,, as they cannot get their bull**** passed through the legislative process, and treat the ACTUAL CONSTITUTION as "suggestions".


This ism as I CORRECTLY CITED, the EXACT OPPOSITE OF LIBERTARIANISM...who are CONSTITUTIONAL ORIGINALISTS.

 

[Grokmaster]

I don't think libertarians and today's liberals would have very much in common to unite around except maybe one or two things.

Legal pot would be one.

 

[FirstTracksGirl]

Legal pot would be one.

True, that and probably personal expression with things like relationships, identity and things like that.

 

[Verax]

Libertarians generally just want to replace public tyranny with private tyranny under the guise of "freedom".

 

[Grokmaster]

True, that and probably personal expression with things like relationships, identity and things like that.

No one seeks to limit the latter; conservatives, including libertarians, oppose "special privileges", especially TAX-PAYER FUNDED ONES, for such things...

 

[FirstTracksGirl]

No one seeks to limit the latter; conservatives, including libertarians, oppose "special privileges", especially TAX-PAYER FUNDED ONES, for such things...

I guess I meant more along the lines of being more accepting of personal expression.

 

[DamnYankee]

Libertarians generally just want to replace public tyranny with private tyranny under the guise of "freedom".

Your comment typifies the reason why Americans kicked 1200+ of you people out of office. We are all hoping 1200 more will be chased out soon. Keep up the good work. :2razz:

 

[celticwar17]

This whole Trump Nationalism thing is becoming very concerning to me. Trump referring to himself as a Nationalist is an attempt to normalize extremism. It's an attempt to get more normal people that would otherwise reject Nazis and full-blown White Nationalism to start using the same verbiage to describe themselves that the more extremists use. Once the common nomenclature is in place it becomes easier and easier for the extremists to make moderate more receptive to their ideas. While many Trump supporters may sadly have a lot in common with Nazis they recall what Nazis did and recognize them as evil. They, therefore, reject the notion that they have similar beliefs regardless of what the evidence says. By slowly getting Nazi terminology normalized they allow Nazis to more easily intermix and recruit those who would otherwise not be amenable to it.

This got me starting to think more about some on the left who have started to embrace the idea of Democratic Socialism. While I may agree with Bernie on many things, I would never classify myself as a socialist. I'm a firm believer in regulatory Capitalism or what I call Nash Capitalism. It has always bothered me that almost none of Bernie's actual policies really truly are what would normally be considered socialist yet for whatever reason he insists upon calling himself one. Thinking about Trump it occurs to me that it's at least a possibility that Bernie is trying to do something very similar to Trump. Trying to mainstream the terminology in order to make a transition to real socialism more plausible down the road. By getting more moderate liberals to start using words like Socialist to describe themselves that makes it easier for true socialists to intermix and recruit by making them seem like kindred spirits.

So long as Trump is the standard bearer for Capitalism, Capitalism is doomed. Sooner or later the blowback from Trump's election is going to send people fleeing towards Democrats. If Bernie Sanders wins the Democratic Nomination in 2020 I along with all moderate liberals and independents will have no choice but to support him in the general election given the dark and disgusting turn of the Republican party. Moderate Republicans have lost their party. The Republican party now belongs to Donald Trump, and if he manages to win again in 2020 any hope of ever getting it back is gone. The only way real conservatives can ever get back any semblance of control over the Republican party again is if he is decimated in 2020. He must be forcefully repudiated beyond any ability to make bull**** excuses for his failure.

In the meantime so long as Trump controls the Republican party we cannot afford to let the Democratic Party slip towards extremism too. I'm very concerned that the only way that happens is if the moderate conservatives and libertarians who understand what Trump represents and the danger he posses join us and keep things centered. Running a third party flyer like Kasich in the General isn't good enough. You may torpedo Trump, but you risk handing the reigns of the country over to another extremist on the left. Registering Democrat and voting in our primary to help secure a more centrist Liberal is really the only option. Obviously, it's going to be a Democrat and it will no doubt be a left-leaning candidate, but if you don't want to choose between Bernie and Trump the time to start thinking about how to avoid that is now.

Ditch the Identity politics, then I'll consider Democrats on equal footing to Republicans... Colorblind society is the only ethical way.

With it, you are more dangerous.... and you will encourage more division.


Also, stop the constant denial that China's economic polices needs to be dealt with.... As a Libertarian Ideal, I want free trade, but not when a country constantly breaks trade agreements, tries to directly steal, and fundamentally subvert our country economically. All the while making threats of military invasion of Taiwan, and are directly RIGHT NOW preparing to do so by 2020.

I think you have it wrong, the Democratic party isn't slipping to extremism because of Trump.... it is because the Democrat party slipped into extremism we HAVE Trump.

And Bernie Sanders government spending policies are absolutely ridiculous and completely fiscally irresponsible.... irregardless of whether they are meant with good intent.

 

[Grokmaster]

I guess I meant more along the lines of being more accepting of personal expression.

Who opposes that? 1st Amendment ...except for the left trying to force people into not being allowed to practice their religious beliefs, by trying to use the power of government to make them be part of gay weddings...etc.

 

[FirstTracksGirl]

Who opposes that? 1st Amendment ...except for the left trying to force people into not being allowed to practice their religious beliefs, by trying to use the power of government to make them be part of gay weddings...etc.

Well for example many of the religious right oppose government recognition of individual expression, such as two gay people being married, and some even discriminating against just being gay. A true libertarian perspective would not have government involved in marriage in the first place and would be open to personal expression since it's a part of individual liberty, and so by reinforcing government definition of marriage and then activily trying to keep others from having that equal ability is contrary to libertarian ideals in my opinion.

 

[Xelor]

IMO, Libertarians who recognize the existential threat Trump represents to the republic are more likely to simply not vote for Trump than they are to vote for a Democrat.

 

[Ikari]

IMO, Libertarians who recognize the existential threat Trump represents to the republic are more likely to simply not vote for Trump than they are to vote for a Democrat.

Well the Dems would have to put up a mighty fine candidate who espoused at least some of my ideals in order to get my vote. Otherwise, I'm more likely to just vote for the Libertarian candidate.

 

[DamnYankee]

IMO, Libertarians who recognize the existential threat Trump represents to the republic are more likely to simply not vote for Trump than they are to vote for a Democrat.

Existential threat to the republic? ROTFL. You mean like he wants a really, really, really, really, wants a better economy and America to be even more successful, abundant, a prosperous? Like that kind of threat?

LMAO

 

[Grand Mal]

I'll pass on the " WIKI" lecture.

There is nothing "new" going on in Leftworld; they continue to seek to FORCE THEIR WORLCVIEW onto EVERYONE ELSE, via the courts,, as they cannot get their bull**** passed through the legislative process, and treat the ACTUAL CONSTITUTION as "suggestions".


This ism as I CORRECTLY CITED, the EXACT OPPOSITE OF LIBERTARIANISM...who are CONSTITUTIONAL ORIGINALISTS.

I really think you should read it. You're in for a surprise.

 

[d0gbreath]

I don't get it. The vast majority of libertarians in the United States are right wing. If you believe in regulated capitalism why work with those that oppose the vast majority of regulations? Wouldn't a standard republican be closer to you than a right wing libertarian?

There is a Libertarian Left. "Live free or die."

It's in the lean select box.

 

[MrWonka]

I don't get it. The vast majority of libertarians in the United States are right wing. If you believe in regulated capitalism why work with those that oppose the vast majority of regulations? Wouldn't a standard republican be closer to you than a right-wing libertarian?

Libertarians and Liberals agree on most social policies. End the war on drugs. Support for gay marriage. Pro-choice. Immigration. Trade. War. Police Brutality.

When it comes to economics contrary to what many Libertarians seem to want to say even they are not mentally unstable enough to think that we can completely eliminate government regulation. They say they want a small simple government. So do most liberals. It's more of a matter degree than a black and white dichotomy.

Gary Johnson as governor of Mexico ran the government far more liberally than many Libertarians would like to admit. New Mexico is a state that has voted Democrat pretty consistently of late.

I think a lot of libertarians overestimate your allegiances with the Right.