Killed over shoplifting? 'Disturbing' video shows Florida store owner fatally shooting alleged thief

[Renae]

https://abcnews.go.com/US/killed-sh...o-shows-florida-store-owner/story?id=58506648

"At this time, in the interest of transparency, although the criminal investigation continues to be active, we at the Lakeland Police Department have requested and received approval of the State Attorney's Office to release all the videos which show the shooting that occurred on October 3rd," the statement said.Dunn, 47, has not been charged in the shooting.
(MORE: 'Stand Your Ground' laws under scrutiny again after man gunned down in parking lot)
"Until the investigation is complete, it would be inappropriate to comment further," Giddens said in the statement, adding that the images in the video "may be disturbing."
The footage was released on the same day Lopez's family and friends held a funeral at a mortuary in nearby Wauchula, Florida, and a burial service at the Friendship Cemetery in Zolfo Springs.

Clean shoot or unjustifiable?

I'm torn, on one hand the guy stole a weapon, and the store owner was probably afraid of being attacked, on the flipside the thief was trying to "get away". Sucks to die for what? A $16 hatchet? However my pity for thieves is very very small...

 

[Chaddelamancha]

https://abcnews.go.com/US/killed-sh...o-shows-florida-store-owner/story?id=58506648

Clean shoot or unjustifiable?

I'm torn, on one hand the guy stole a weapon, and the store owner was probably afraid of being attacked, on the flipside the thief was trying to "get away". Sucks to die for what? A $16 hatchet? However my pity for thieves is very very small...

I don't have pity for thieves, but I also do not condone murder. That's what this is. He was in no danger when he shot Lopez, nor was anyone else. He wasn't "standing his ground"; he was being judge, jury, and executioner here.

 

[Fledermaus]

https://abcnews.go.com/US/killed-sh...o-shows-florida-store-owner/story?id=58506648

Clean shoot or unjustifiable?

I'm torn, on one hand the guy stole a weapon, and the store owner was probably afraid of being attacked, on the flipside the thief was trying to "get away". Sucks to die for what? A $16 hatchet? However my pity for thieves is very very small...

I agree with the idea "stupidity should be painful". It shouldn't be fatal, but that occasionally happens.

Let's look at the chain of events.

1. Dude decides to steal. Bad idea.
2. Dude steals. Bad action.
3. Dude is asked to pay for hatchet but decides not to. Bad idea.
4. Dude tries to escape with stolen item. Bad action.
5. Dude gets shot. Finally something bad not done by the Dude...

 

[Chillfolks]

Unjustified from the details given. There doesn't seem to be any mention of the alleged shoplifter using the hatchet As a weapon. He just stole it. If there is evidence he threatened the owner then we have a different situation

 

[Renae]

Unjustified from the details given. There doesn't seem to be any mention of the alleged shoplifter using the hatchet As a weapon. He just stole it. If there is evidence he threatened the owner then we have a different situation

Yeah that's where I'm torn on it.

Of course, there is also the reality that while the shooter may have over reacted, he did not create this situation to start with, the thief did...

 

[Lethargic Aptitude]

https://abcnews.go.com/US/killed-sh...o-shows-florida-store-owner/story?id=58506648

Clean shoot or unjustifiable?

I'm torn, on one hand the guy stole a weapon, and the store owner was probably afraid of being attacked, on the flipside the thief was trying to "get away". Sucks to die for what? A $16 hatchet? However my pity for thieves is very very small...

I agree I have little pity for thieves.

On one hand the thief had a weapon, but the video does not show the thief wielding the hatchet in a threatening way. I do not know if there is additional video showing the thief threatening the store owner, or if there are witnesses who saw such behavior. If the guy threatened the owner with the hatchet then there probably would not be charges against the owner. If the evidence shows what was going on in the video as the guy was just trying to escape in a non-threatening manner, then I would imagine that he would be charged.

Until there is more information there is no telling what the case was.

 

[Taylor]

There seems to be no evidence that the owner was ever in danger, so the question is whether the owner was justified in killing a man to save $10. I think the answer to that question is obvious.

 

[jdog21]

Yeah that's where I'm torn on it.

Of course, there is also the reality that while the shooter may have over reacted, he did not create this situation to start with, the thief did...

I don't know Florida's laws but I would think stand your ground wouldn't apply since the man was escaping and wasn't trying to hit the store owner to escape.

So I think the question is can you shoot someone to defend the loss of property theft?

 

[Chaddelamancha]

I agree I have little pity for thieves.

On one hand the thief had a weapon, but the video does not show the thief wielding the hatchet in a threatening way. I do not know if there is additional video showing the thief threatening the store owner, or if there are witnesses who saw such behavior. If the guy threatened the owner with the hatchet then there probably would not be charges against the owner. If the evidence shows what was going on in the video as the guy was just trying to escape in a non-threatening manner, then I would imagine that he would be charged.

Until there is more information there is no telling what the case was.

It's pretty clear from the video that the thief was running away when shot. That's not standing your ground.

 

[Renae]

I don't know Florida's laws but I would think stand your ground wouldn't apply since the man was escaping and wasn't trying to hit the store owner to escape.

So I think the question is can you shoot someone to defend the loss of property theft?

In Texas you can defend property. Dunno bout Florida.

 

[jdog21]

In Texas you can defend property. Dunno bout Florida.

In California
Criminal Jury Instruction 3476 states the following concerning the right to use reasonable force to protect property:


3476. Right to Defend Real or Personal Property

The owner [or possessor] of (real/ [or] personal) property may use reasonable force to protect that property from imminent harm. [A person may also use reasonable force to protect the property of a (family member/guest/master/servant/ward) from immediate harm.]

Reasonable force means the amount of force that a reasonable person in the same situation would believe is necessary to protect the property from imminent harm.

When deciding whether the defendant used reasonable force, consider all the circumstances as they were known to and appeared to the defendant and consider what a reasonable person in a similar situation with similar knowledge would have believed. If the defendant's beliefs were reasonable, the danger does not need to have actually existed.

The People have the burden of proving beyond a reasonable doubt that the defendant used more force than was reasonable to protect property from imminent harm. If the People have not met this burden, you must find the defendant not guilty of <insert crime>.

 

[Renae]

In California
Criminal Jury Instruction 3476 states the following concerning the right to use reasonable force to protect property:


3476. Right to Defend Real or Personal Property

The owner [or possessor] of (real/ [or] personal) property may use reasonable force to protect that property from imminent harm. [A person may also use reasonable force to protect the property of a (family member/guest/master/servant/ward) from immediate harm.]

Reasonable force means the amount of force that a reasonable person in the same situation would believe is necessary to protect the property from imminent harm.

When deciding whether the defendant used reasonable force, consider all the circumstances as they were known to and appeared to the defendant and consider what a reasonable person in a similar situation with similar knowledge would have believed. If the defendant's beliefs were reasonable, the danger does not need to have actually existed.

The People have the burden of proving beyond a reasonable doubt that the defendant used more force than was reasonable to protect property from imminent harm. If the People have not met this burden, you must find the defendant not guilty of <insert crime>.

That's why I don't live in Cali. If I see you robbing me or a neighbor, I can and will put Number 2 buckshot in your ass. Don't steal.

 

[Xelor]

https://abcnews.go.com/US/killed-sh...o-shows-florida-store-owner/story?id=58506648

Clean shoot or unjustifiable?

I'm torn, on one hand the guy stole a weapon, and the store owner was probably afraid of being attacked, on the flipside the thief was trying to "get away". Sucks to die for what? A $16 hatchet? However my pity for thieves is very very small...

Red:
I'm hard pressed to think of a hatches as a weapon, though one can be used thus.


Blue:
It strains credulity and reason to think one, observing another fleeing from oneself, fears being attacked by the departing party, particularly when the fleer has but a hatchet.

I don't know just how deucedly ignorant, insipid and irrational one must be to conceive one risks attack from a fleeing person, but apparently people so profoundly bereft of brain power do indeed exist, and some of them even have guns. That such folks can and do obtain possession of firearms is why it's so that the so-called "gun problem" in the U.S. isn't a gun problem, but rather an access-to-a-gun problem. Quite simply, dolts, emotionally and cognitively immature folks, and/or simply irrational folks should not have any ability to obtain a firearm and anyone fool enough to provide them with one should be held every bit as culpable for the unlawful/imprudent acts of the "moron's" whom the provider abetted by making the firearm available to them.


So a man is now dead because he was fool enough to attempt to pilfer a hatchet from an idiot. Frankly, I had rather we revoke the shooter's U.S. citizenship/residency and expel him from the country for I think the nation would be better off with loons such him simply not in it.

 

[Xelor]

Yeah that's where I'm torn on it.

Of course, there is also the reality that while the shooter may have over reacted, he did not create this situation to start with, the thief did...

All manners of things occur daily in rational people's lives. Those rational individuals yet don't overreact to them.

There's a time and a place for every action, and part of being a rational and mature adult is recognizing what action is appropriate to the time and place, the situation, in which one finds oneself. That shooter, quite simply, demonstrated his inadequacy to that task.

 

[Casper]

In Texas you can defend property. Dunno bout Florida.

https://codes.findlaw.com/tx/penal-code/penal-sect-9-42.html

 

[mike2810]

I will wait for the investigation to finish. There is not enough info given in the one linked article.

Some thoughts I have is similar to Fledermaus post 3. Shoplifting is a crime.. When caught the decision was made to flee with the merchandise even though a gun is pointed at him.
The shop owner fired his weapon hitting the shoplifter. The shot was fatal.


Should someone die for shoplifting a hatchet. Most likely not. Since the Shoplifter was asked to pay, makes me wonder what would have happened if the shoplifter just returned the item or paid for it. The situation could have been deescalated by the shoplifter if he would have returned the item or paid for it. Now the shop owner has legal situation due to the fact he fired his weapon.

 

[Renae]

All manners of things occur daily in rational people's lives. Those rational individuals yet don't overreact to them.

There's a time and a place for every action, and part of being a rational and mature adult is recognizing what action is appropriate to the time and place, the situation, in which one finds oneself. That shooter, quite simply, demonstrated his inadequacy to that task.

Possibly, but again, the shooter didn't create the situation, the thief did.

 

[Renae]

Red:
I'm hard pressed to think of a hatches as a weapon, though one can be used thus.


Blue:
It strains credulity and reason to think one, observing another fleeing from oneself, fears being attacked by the departing party, particularly when the fleer has but a hatchet.

I don't know just how deucedly ignorant, insipid and irrational one must be to conceive one risks attack from a fleeing person, but apparently people so profoundly bereft of brain power do indeed exist, and some of them even have guns. That such folks can and do obtain possession of firearms is why it's so that the so-called "gun problem" in the U.S. isn't a gun problem, but rather an access-to-a-gun problem. Quite simply, dolts, emotionally and cognitively immature folks, and/or simply irrational folks should not have any ability to obtain a firearm and anyone fool enough to provide them with one should be held every bit as culpable for the unlawful/imprudent acts of the "moron's" whom the provider abetted by making the firearm available to them.


So a man is now dead because he was fool enough to attempt to pilfer a hatchet from an idiot. Frankly, I had rather we revoke the shooter's U.S. citizenship/residency and expel him from the country for I think the nation would be better off with loons such him simply not in it.

Unlike you, I don't feel that victimizing a thief is the right path.

 

[LincolnRossiter]

https://abcnews.go.com/US/killed-sh...o-shows-florida-store-owner/story?id=58506648

Clean shoot or unjustifiable?

I'm torn, on one hand the guy stole a weapon, and the store owner was probably afraid of being attacked, on the flipside the thief was trying to "get away". Sucks to die for what? A $16 hatchet? However my pity for thieves is very very small...

Just based on that video? No. Not a clean shoot and not justifiable. Hope the guy catches a manslaughter rap. But let's see what the investigation uncovers.

 

[Xelor]

Yeah that's where I'm torn on it.

Of course, there is also the reality that while the shooter may have over reacted, he did not create this situation to start with, the thief did...

All manners of things occur daily in rational people's lives. Those rational individuals yet don't overreact to them.

There's a time and a place for every action, and part of being a rational and mature adult is recognizing what action is appropriate to the time and place, the situation, in which one finds oneself. That shooter, quite simply, demonstrated his inadequacy to that task.

Unlike you, I don't feel that victimizing a thief is the right path.

Oh, hell. Why not just go full-on Cosmological about it....

The nuclear arms race is like two sworn enemies standing waist deep in gasoline, one with three matches, the other with five.
-- Carl Sagan​

 

[mike2810]

Red:

So a man is now dead because he was fool enough to attempt to pilfer a hatchet from an idiot. Frankly, I had rather we revoke the shooter's U.S. citizenship/residency and expel him from the country for I think the nation would be better off with loons such him simply not in it.

Pretty harsh. How about we revoke shoplifter's citizenship and expel them.

I am not going to say the shooting was justified. However with what was presented in the OP the shoplifter had an opportunity to pay for the item or maybe even leave the hatchet in the store. Instead he decided to leave the store with the stolen item. Even after the owner had a gun pointed at him. Not very smart by the shoplifter.

 

[AlphaOmega]

This was murder

 

[Renae]

Oh, hell. Why not just go full-on Cosmological about it....

The nuclear arms race is like two sworn enemies standing waist deep in gasoline, one with three matches, the other with five.
-- Carl Sagan​

No, you're giving way too much pity to the person that created the situation. I'm not saying the shooting was "JUSTIFIED" but the shooter was in a high stress situation crated by someone thieving... I just can't get my pity needle to move for that.

 

[Xelor]

Red:
I'm hard pressed to think of a hatches as a weapon, though one can be used thus.


Blue:
It strains credulity and reason to think one, observing another fleeing from oneself, fears being attacked by the departing party, particularly when the fleer has but a hatchet.

I don't know just how deucedly ignorant, insipid and irrational one must be to conceive one risks attack from a fleeing person, but apparently people so profoundly bereft of brain power do indeed exist, and some of them even have guns. That such folks can and do obtain possession of firearms is why it's so that the so-called "gun problem" in the U.S. isn't a gun problem, but rather an access-to-a-gun problem. Quite simply, dolts, emotionally and cognitively immature folks, and/or simply irrational folks should not have any ability to obtain a firearm and anyone fool enough to provide them with one should be held every bit as culpable for the unlawful/imprudent acts of the "moron's" whom the provider abetted by making the firearm available to them.


So a man is now dead because he was fool enough to attempt to pilfer a hatchet from an idiot. Frankly, I had rather we revoke the shooter's U.S. citizenship/residency and expel him from the country for I think the nation would be better off with loons such him simply not in it.

Unlike you, I don't feel that victimizing a thief is the right path.

Yeah that's where I'm torn on it.

Of course, there is also the reality that while the shooter may have over reacted, he did not create this situation to start with, the thief did...

All manners of things occur daily in rational people's lives. Those rational individuals yet don't overreact to them.


There's a time and a place for every action, and part of being a rational and mature adult is recognizing what action is appropriate to the time and place, the situation, in which one finds oneself. That shooter, quite simply, demonstrated his inadequacy to that task.

Possibly, but again, the shooter didn't create the situation, the thief did.

Red:

 

[Lethargic Aptitude]

It's pretty clear from the video that the thief was running away when shot. That's not standing your ground.

True, he was trying to leave. The store owner/Commissioner Simply could have done what millions of other store clerks have done and called the police and wrote the license plate number down.