Montecresto
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Simpleχity;1064480962 said:Saddam didn't come to power in the 60's and was already in power during the 80's.
You're missing the 70's ... when in fact he did come to power.
Perhaps, but given the nature of the Communist regimes and the 10's of millions dead, and the actions of the Iranian regimes, it might be best to take them seriously no matter how they were interpreted.I don't know whether B'smith is right or not, but I do know that phrases translated from one language into another quite frequently change meanings. The famous statement by Krushchev, for example "We will bury you" was better translated as "We will leave you in the dust," not meant to be a threat but a challenge.
The "wipe Israel off of the face of the Earth" and "Death to America" phrases could well be the same thing.
That was during the Cold War when Saddam Hussein was 22 years old. The CIA must have seen a lot of potential in this guy.And you're dismissing the documentation of CIA support of Saddam Hussein beginning in 1959, and continuing through the late 80's. What's wrong with you.
You have presented no documentation that the CIA was involved in Saddam's ascension years (1975-1979). The CIA was actually averse to Saddam at this time as he was fostering closer ties between Baghdad and Moscow and was instrumental in brokering the 1972 Treaty of Friendship between the two nations. Soviet arms and advisers soon flooded the country. It was during this period that the US lost Iraq to the Soviets, but gained Egypt.And you're dismissing the documentation of CIA support of Saddam Hussein beginning in 1959, and continuing through the late 80's. What's wrong with you.
Simpleχity;1064483448 said:You have presented no documentation that the CIA was involved in Saddam's ascension years (1975-1979). The CIA was actually averse to Saddam at this time as he was fostering closer ties between Baghdad and Moscow and was instrumental in brokering the 1972 Treaty of Friendship between the two nations. Soviet arms and advisers soon flooded the country. It was during this period that the US lost Iraq to the Soviets, but gained Egypt.
Going farther out in time, Saddam could not have sustained in the 1980-1988 Iran/Iraq War without the massive infusion of Soviet arms, armor, and aircraft which far surpassed the tepid Western assistance. Due to the Soviets, by the end of 1987 Iraq enjoyed a quantitative edge in tanks (5:1) and aircraft (10:1).
Why bother denying anythinng? As explained earlier there was a COLD WAR going on and in war time nations often make allies out of people they personally abhor or whose policies they may disagree. Churchill and Stalin is a very famous example of that though there would be dozens of others.Saddam was indeed by then flirting with Moscow. That's besides the fact that the CIA had sponsored and supported Saddam all the years in which I did in fact document, which enabled his ultimate rise to power. And whatever aversions there might have been to Saddam in 1979, evaporated in no time, as pointed out, they were back to helping Saddam throughout his war with Iran. Still can't figure out what you're protecting through your attempt to deny that like so many other similar examples, Saddam was the US darling, until he wasn't.
The CIA used a young Saddam to do some thug work. But they had no involvement in his internal rise to power during the years 1972-1979. The US had no problem with the Israelis bombing his reactor in 1981. The US, the Soviets, the French, and almost every Arab nation was helping Saddam in the war against Iran. So what? The US wasn't in love with him. The Soviet client Saddam was simply the lesser of two evils at war and interfering with the critical oil lanes.Saddam was indeed by then flirting with Moscow. That's besides the fact that the CIA had sponsored and supported Saddam all the years in which I did in fact document, which enabled his ultimate rise to power. And whatever aversions there might have been to Saddam in 1979, evaporated in no time, as pointed out, they were back to helping Saddam throughout his war with Iran. Still can't figure out what you're protecting through your attempt to deny that like so many other similar examples, Saddam was the US darling, until he wasn't.
Simpleχity;1064484480 said:The CIA used a young Saddam to do some thug work. But they had no involvement in his internal rise to power during the years 1972-1979. The US had no problem with the Israelis bombing his reactor in 1981. The US, the Soviets, the French, and almost every Arab nation was helping Saddam in the war against Iran. So what? The US wasn't in love with him. The Soviet client Saddam was simply the lesser of two evils at war and interfering with the critical oil lanes.
C'mon man. I realize you're no friend of the US, but don't start pushing revisionism.
The CIA used a young kid that belonged to stumbling and bumbling Ba'ath Party. It had no inking at that time of Saddam's destiny. The US also helped him during the Iran War out of pragmatism ... Khomeini was holding Americans hostage and threatening to disrupt tanker traffic in the Persian Gulf. The CIA had no role in Saddam's internal rise to power between 1972-1979.Ok, you can move the goal posts thus. I don't believe I said that the US was in love with Saddam Hussein. Nor any other dictators throughout the course of time that have been used to advance US corporate interests. My point was simply that from an early age, the US/CIA was there to help Saddam's climb to power in Iraq, and continued to use him, so long as it was beneficial to US corporate interests, regardless of how that faired for the citizens of Iraq.
Which "US Corporate interests" are you referring to, how are they different from US interests, and what evidence do you have to support your charges?Ok, you can move the goal posts thus. I don't believe I said that the US was in love with Saddam Hussein. Nor any other dictators throughout the course of time that have been used to advance US corporate interests. My point was simply that from an early age, the US/CIA was there to help Saddam's climb to power in Iraq, and continued to use him, so long as it was beneficial to US corporate interests, regardless of how that faired for the citizens of Iraq.
Simpleχity;1064484879 said:The CIA used a young kid that belonged to stumbling and bumbling Ba'ath Party. It had no inking at that time of Saddam's destiny. The US also helped him during the Iran War out of pragmatism ... Khomeini was holding Americans hostage and threatening to disrupt tanker traffic in the Persian Gulf. The CIA had no role in Saddam's internal rise to power between 1972-1979.
Yes, well then you go on claiming that the CIA was playing kid games. Enough.
_________________________I don't know whether B'smith is right or not, but I do know that phrases translated from one language into another quite frequently change meanings. The famous statement by Krushchev, for example "We will bury you" was better translated as "We will leave you in the dust," not meant to be a threat but a challenge.
The "wipe Israel off of the face of the Earth" and "Death to America" phrases could well be the same thing.
When you were there while the Shah was in power there were over 100= 150,000 Jews in Iran. Now there are less than 9,000.
If "Death to the Israel" or "Death To America" is hyperbole, why repeat it? Are they so unsophisticated that they don't understand the significance of these words? If that is the case, as you claim, then how in the world can we expect these backward people to possess nuclear weapons?
Sharing a lunch with some Iranians over 40 years ago was probably a wonderful experience but the world is having to deal with the Iran of today.
https://www.google.ca/search?q=iran...v&sa=X&ei=CrsZVdvgCpewogSxkIKwBg&ved=0CBwQsAQ
The great 'melting pot' at work. A wonderful thing.Re: your sneering: "Sharing a lunch with some Iranians over 40 years ago was probably a wonderful experience but the world is having to deal with the Iran of today."
Actually it's possible to stay in touch with Regional events outside of doing research.
For Example, Friday night my wife & I hosted a dinner party for some Regional Med. students who are from Greece, Afghanistan, Pakistan & Iran etc. so I had a more recent opportunity to help understand more about everything from kite fighting to regional sentiments & some of what's really going on in Iran & elsewhere in the Region. They'll be back.
They agreed that the "Death to America" stuff is just meaningless & embarrassing, tiresome, old hyperbolic rhetoric. Iran's younger generation is working on changing the political landscape in Iran & there are, obviously, "backward" people in every country.
Re: your sneering: "Sharing a lunch with some Iranians over 40 years ago was probably a wonderful experience but the world is having to deal with the Iran of today."
Actually it's possible to stay in touch with Regional events outside of doing research.
For Example, Friday night my wife & I hosted a dinner party for some Regional Med. students who are from Greece, Afghanistan, Pakistan & Iran etc. so I had a more recent opportunity to help understand more about everything from kite fighting to regional sentiments & some of what's really going on in Iran & elsewhere in the Region. They'll be back.
They agreed that the "Death to America" stuff is just meaningless & embarrassing, tiresome, old hyperbolic rhetoric. Iran's younger generation is working on changing the political landscape in Iran & there are, obviously, "backward" people in every country.
Bs!It's the same with "Death to America". The speaker doesn't mean it & doesn't expect his audience to believe he means it literally.
Bs!
Iran militia chief: Destroying Israel is ‘nonnegotiable’
Basij commander Mohammad Reza Naqdi also threatens Saudis, saying their fate will be like that of Saddam Hussein
The commander of the Basij militia of Iran’s Revolutionary Guards said that “erasing Israel off the map” is “nonnegotiable,” according to an Israel Radio report Tuesday.
[...]
In 2014, Naqdi said Iran was stepping up efforts to arm West Bank Palestinians for battle against Israel, adding the move would lead to Israel’s annihilation, Iran’s Fars news agency reported.
“Arming the West Bank has started and weapons will be supplied to the people of this region,” Naqdi said.
“The Zionists should know that the next war won’t be confined to the present borders and the Mujahedeen will push them back,” he added. Naqdi claimed that much of Hamas’s arsenal, training and technical knowhow in the summer conflict with Israel was supplied by Iran.
[...]Iran militia chief: Destroying Israel is 'nonnegotiable' | The Times of Israel
Bs!
Iran militia chief: Destroying Israel is ‘nonnegotiable’
Basij commander Mohammad Reza Naqdi also threatens Saudis, saying their fate will be like that of Saddam Hussein
The commander of the Basij militia of Iran’s Revolutionary Guards said that “erasing Israel off the map” is “nonnegotiable,” according to an Israel Radio report Tuesday.
[...]
In 2014, Naqdi said Iran was stepping up efforts to arm West Bank Palestinians for battle against Israel, adding the move would lead to Israel’s annihilation, Iran’s Fars news agency reported.
“Arming the West Bank has started and weapons will be supplied to the people of this region,” Naqdi said.
“The Zionists should know that the next war won’t be confined to the present borders and the Mujahedeen will push them back,” he added. Naqdi claimed that much of Hamas’s arsenal, training and technical knowhow in the summer conflict with Israel was supplied by Iran.
[...]Iran militia chief: Destroying Israel is 'nonnegotiable' | The Times of Israel
I'll call out you (or anyone) whenever I see an attempt to manipulate/falsify history in order to promote a political/ideological agenda.Yes, well then you go on claiming that the CIA was playing kid games. Enough.
Simpleχity;1064487035 said:I'll call out you (or anyone) whenever I see an attempt to manipulate/falsify history in order to promote a political/ideological agenda.
None of us live in Iraq or Iran so all are equally qualified to comment. You seem to have spent a lot of time in Iraq, especially when Saddam was 22.I appreciate your attempt. Your talking to a Canadian, who lives in Costa Rica, his opinion is moot.
None of us live in Iraq or Iran so all are equally qualified to comment. You seem to have spent a lot of time in Iraq, especially when Saddam was 22.
Tell me, what was Saddam really like in those early years?
Bs!
Iran militia chief: Destroying Israel is ‘nonnegotiable’
Basij commander Mohammad Reza Naqdi also threatens Saudis, saying their fate will be like that of Saddam Hussein
The commander of the Basij militia of Iran’s Revolutionary Guards said that “erasing Israel off the map” is “nonnegotiable,” according to an Israel Radio report Tuesday.
[...]
In 2014, Naqdi said Iran was stepping up efforts to arm West Bank Palestinians for battle against Israel, adding the move would lead to Israel’s annihilation, Iran’s Fars news agency reported.
“Arming the West Bank has started and weapons will be supplied to the people of this region,” Naqdi said.
“The Zionists should know that the next war won’t be confined to the present borders and the Mujahedeen will push them back,” he added. Naqdi claimed that much of Hamas’s arsenal, training and technical knowhow in the summer conflict with Israel was supplied by Iran.
[...]Iran militia chief: Destroying Israel is 'nonnegotiable' | The Times of Israel
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