As soon as the very first funding payment!!! was missed, appropriate unions should have been in court filing suit. I blame them for that. They just sat back and let it happen - just like the politicians.
There ought to be a law that if an entity keeps allowing shortfalls, they forfeit the right to complain. Something like our patent infringement or copyright infringement laws. Unions didn't want to make an issue of it because they didn't want sunshine on their Cadillac bennies. Well, here comes the light.
And how does this somehow mean more than sixty years of declining population from 1.8 million to 720,000?
How does all this mean more than the loss of a million plus people and all the taxes that they would have paid over those decades>
How does all this mean more than all the companies who left the city and took the jobs and taxes with them?
How does this mean more than over a century of racial animosity in the city which contributed significantly to the exodus leaving the city depopulated and cash strapped with a mostly poor population?
Explain to us how pension investments killed the city of Detroit?
I sure would like to but that would not be within the topic of this thread. You are encouraging me to break forum rules. Bad form on your part.
The union leader are crooked politicians themselves, this is why I believe the unions should be dissolved to protect the workers.
Corruption.
But you have no problem when people ignore the U.S. Constitution.
And how does this somehow mean more than sixty years of declining population from 1.8 million to 720,000?
How does all this mean more than the loss of a million plus people and all the taxes that they would have paid over those decades>
How does all this mean more than all the companies who left the city and took the jobs and taxes with them?
How does this mean more than over a century of racial animosity in the city which contributed significantly to the exodus leaving the city depopulated and cash strapped with a mostly poor population?
Explain to us how pension investments killed the city of Detroit?
I quoted your post to respond to it. You edited it AFTER I had already clicked "reply with quote". What appears in MY post is the unedited version of what YOU posted. Not surprising that you would try to lie about that too.
Where did I claim it meant "more"?
I was talking to Maggie about mismanagement and corruption with the pension funds. Just because it doesn't mean "more" doesn't mean that it means nothing. Your tactics on this thread have been consistently dishonest. Will there be a point when you are able to discuss things on the up and up or should I just put you on ignore right now?
Oh, Jack. Don't take the road another infamous poster takes on this site accusing posters of lying when they edit posts. I edit posts allllll the time. And it happens to me lots of times when I pull someone's post to reply to them if I reply quickly. Personally, I never think a thing about it.
That is absurd. I have seen you say NOTHING... ZIP ... NADA .... ZERO ... about the two main problems which hurt Detroit and all you do is focus on the claim of corruption.
So tell us straight out - do you see this so called pension corruption as just as significant as the loss of 2/3 of the populaltion, the loss of the accompaning tax base, the loss of companies and the jobs they provided, and the racial divisions which have split the city and contributed to all those things?
Tell us straight out so you cannot claim to be misrepresented. Tell us.
What is absurd is that anyone looking at the situation would think that losing 60% percent of a population is not going to have an effect. OF COURSE IT IS. I mean, is it really that big of a mystery? The problem is that they have been bleeding population for decades and have not taken steps to remedy the situation. Do you really think that they didn't know YEARS ago that they were headed for trouble?
I'll tell you this. 60% of a population does not pull up stakes and leave for no reason and they don't do it overnight. This has been an excruciatingly slow death.
This is what you are not going to do here.So answer the question so you do not accuse me of misinterpreting you again.
Was the loss of 2/3 of Detroit's population and the loss of the tax base that went with it more or less important than this charge of corruption with the pension funds?
And since you claimed that the City should have taken steps to stop the flow of population what steps would you have taken if you were in charge to have stopped that and saved the city?
This is what you are not going to do here.
You're not going to frame this around "Was the loss of 2/3 of Detroit's population and the loss of the tax base that went with it more or less important than this charge of corruption with the pension funds?" This is a strawman that you set up because I pointed out the corruption with the handling of the pension funds. Of course it pains you to have to admit that there indeed was a whole lot of corruption involved because your beloved Democrats were in charge of it. What you are attempting to do now is to claim that I said corruption is the main reason why the city is in trouble. I never made such a claim. I merely gave examples of corruption. The fact that you can't handle it is your problem, not mine.
I'm not having any of these tactics, haymarket.
Your 2 points are also gross misrepresentations.
The 'corruption' in this case, is the Extraordinary population drop was gradual and Draconian belt-tightening should have come Much sooner.So answer the question so you do not accuse me of misinterpreting you again.
Was the loss of 2/3 of Detroit's population and the loss of the tax base that went with it more or less important than this charge of corruption with the pension funds?
And since you claimed that the City should have taken steps to stop the flow of population what steps would you have taken if you were in charge to have stopped that and saved the city?
Not all the debt is UTGO, but some is.http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-07-18/bankrupt-detroit-shouldn-t-scalp-bondholders.html said:[.....]
Those UTGO bonds were approved by voters and backed by tax revenue.
They're generally about as safe as it gets.
So treating them on par with unsecured pension debt is a good way to panic investors.
Five other cities and three school districts in Michigan are also under emergency managers. About 10% of the state's population lives in a locality under budgetary oversight.
School districts in Pontiac and Buena Vista have recently defaulted. If Orr follows through and treats those UTGO bonds the same as other unsecured debt, investors could be forgiven for wondering if the state is still committed to honoring its obligations.
[.....]
Sure, you can frame things any way you want to. Just don't be surprised when I don't participate. Especially when you do so dishonestly like you have done repeatedly on this thread.Actually, I will frame things in any way I want to frame them.
YOur posts speak for themselves. You attacked me for bringing up the economy and racial problems and said they were a GROSS MISREPRESENTATION.
from your 400
In place of those two factors you opted instead to focus on pensions and underfunding of them claiming corruption.
Detroit began its slide under two consecutive Republican mayors from 1950 through 1961. During that time, under Cobo and Mariani, Detroit lost 10% of its population. That was the beginning of the end of a trend that is still in effect today.
But to blame this on a party is silly as no mayor is responsible for the two huge factors that killed Detroit:
1 - economic desertion of the city causing it to be abandoned by business and the middle class
2 - deeply ingrained racial problems
It was those two things which have taken Detroit from 1.8 million down to just over 700,000. And that is not the fault of a Republican or Democratic mayor.
Detroit has had a Democrat in the Mayor's office since January 2, 1962. That's 51 years! Your 2 points are also gross misrepresentations. Detroit has suffered from corruption and financial mismanagement for decades. They put all of their eggs in one basket with the auto industry and they lacked any vision what so ever once it became clear that the auto industry could not carry their water. Bringing up two republican governors from more than half a century ago is just plain hackery... and really, REALLY stupid hackery at that.
It is already gone.It's extremely unlikely that the U.S. will abandon its constitution anytime during the foreseeable future, especially as the amending process allows for flexibility. There is no serious movement to supplant the constitution with any alternative. By serious movement, I mean one that enjoys a significant share of the population and has or is gaining significant influence. Fringe elements do not constitute a serious movement in that direction.
At the rate we are moving toward a mix of fascism and socialism how much longer do you think it will take? Tyranny is already here. And it grows every day.The U.S. is currently a mixed economy. It is not, at least in the strict definition of the term, a socialist economy.
Detroit was destroyed by liberalism. People left because they could. They voted against the taxes and regulations with their feet.Detroit offers some lessons related to the depletion of human capital (population decline + departure of highly educated persons + failure of schools to regenerate human capital) in which the environment became inhospitable to economic activity, that decline in economic activity fueled significant socioeconomic problems, public finances deteriorated to the point where basic services were no longer provided effectively, all of which further compounded Detroit's problems.
The U.S. as a whole does not face such a dire problem anytime soon. It does risk a continued erosion of its competitiveness on account of the stagnation of its educational attainment and emergent gap with OECD countries. Some of this gap is already being reflected in early indications that the rate of U.S. innovation is slowing, which means diminished long-run growth potential. The U.S. still has broad flexibility to address its major problems, as well as the capacity to make necessary investments. Hence, a decline is not inevitable. There is an alternative path. However, a continuation of political dysfunction will plant the U.S. on a less than optimal path, as the changing world requires more than the status quo (the default policy from political dysfunction).
You are looking at symptoms. I am looking for root causes. Of course businesses would flock there. Just wipe out the regulation-tyranny and the oppressive tax regime.This is not a tax or regulatory problem. Its high crime, lack of basic services, enormous educational attainment gap that has created a largely uncompetitive labor pool, and other socioeconomic problems make it highly unattractive. Companies will not hire workers who cannot perform even if they paid no taxes, because they need to provide value in a competitive marketplace. Companies won't operate where their employees and assets are endangered on account of a lack of basic services e.g., effective law enforcement.
I can hardly wait to see you explain away the next bankruptcy. And the next. And the next. And the next...Yesterday and also today, I made some references to Detroit's huge educational attainment gap, which has essentially left the city with a disproportionately uncompetitive labor pool. I also pointed out the strong indirect relationship between educational attainment and unemployment in the BLS's monthly employment situation reports. I've made the same point elsewhere.
I was informed that at least one conservative sees a similar picture. After searching for the piece, I found a blog entry by former Heritage Foundation President Edwin Feulner. In part, he wrote:
[/I]
He goes on to cite some outcomes from statewide referenda that could, in his opinion, be helpful to Detroit.
Several points:
1. Feulner demonstrates that not every conservative embraces the narrative that Detroit's fiscal catastrophe is a consequence of partisan governance.
2. He shows a big picture understanding of the relationship between education-employment-outcomes (parenthetical note: his no longer serving as Heritage's President is a loss for the organization, both in terms of a loss of intellectual gravitas and ability to communicate coherent conservative viewpoints). This understanding almost certainly is shared beyond ideological lines and it is one area on which a coherent recovery framework would need to be developed if Detroit is to replenish its devastating loss of human capital so as to return to a growth trajectory (in terms of economic activity, socioeconomic indicators, etc.).
3. It would be interesting to learn more about teacher compensation in Detroit: Did the compensation reflect a risk premium of sorts to induce people to teach in Detroit's schools, were they the result of collective bargaining agreements that were increasingly disconnected from outcomes, were other factors involved?
4. The impact of the referenda outcomes he cites would depend on the factors that led to teacher compensation being what it is. If a risk premium is involved, the referenda outcomes would have little impact. If there were a fundamental disconnect between teacher compensation and outcomes at the school system level, it might offer some benefit (but empirical evidence related to reduced collective bargaining regarding salaries and also organizational outcomes is still very limited, so a large dose of caution is required).
I can hardly wait to see you explain away the next bankruptcy. And the next. And the next. And the next...
Yes. Buy weapons and ammunition. You are going to need them.When the Ponzi Scheme begins to collapse during a down economy, Katy!! Bar the door!!
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?