Judge orders discharge of an anti-war Marine

danarhea · Apr 3, 2007

A judge has ordered the Marines to release a recruit as a conscientious objector. I have a problem with this decision, and I will explain it in 3 parts.

1) The kid knew what he was getting into when he joined. The Marines train "killing machines" for battle. When at war, you are supposed to kill. That is the nature of war.

2) Conscientious objector status was created under the old draft system, because our government realized that some people had legitimate religious or moral differences of opinion with the government about serving in the military. That is understandable, and the government took that into account. This DID NOT APPLY to those who enlisted, since the action of enlisting demonstrated that no special religious or moral difference of opinion existed in the first place.

3) By letting this kid change his mind, the court has set a precedent which allows anyone in the military to "change their minds" about their own enlistments, which were completely voluntary in the first place. No military, even the all-powerful US military, can work properly under this type of paradigm.

This is a no-brainer, but a court got it completely wrong. While, in this particular circumstance, the stockade might not be the best recommendation, the kid should at least have gotten a dishonorable discharge if he refused orders. That would have been the appropriate way for him to leave the military - By accepting the consequences of his own actions.

We live by the choices we make in life, that is, unless we can get a lawyer to go to bat for us by telling the world that our fault really isn't our fault.

Article is here.

WI Crippler · Apr 3, 2007

I think you wrapped that up pretty good there....

aps · Apr 3, 2007

danarhea said:
A judge has ordered the Marines to release a recruit as a conscientious objector. I have a problem with this decision, and I will explain it in 3 parts.

1) The kid knew what he was getting into when he joined. The Marines train "killing machines" for battle. When at war, you are supposed to kill. That is the nature of war.

2) Conscientious objector status was created under the old draft system, because our government realized that some people had legitimate religious or moral differences of opinion with the government about serving in the military. That is understandable, and the government took that into account. This DID NOT APPLY to those who enlisted, since the action of enlisting demonstrated that no special religious or moral difference of opinion existed in the first place.

3) By letting this kid change his mind, the court has set a precedent which allows anyone in the military to "change their minds" about their own enlistments, which were completely voluntary in the first place. No military, even the all-powerful US military, can work properly under this type of paradigm.

This is a no-brainer, but a court got it completely wrong. While, in this particular circumstance, the stockade might not be the best recommendation, the kid should at least have gotten a dishonorable discharge if he refused orders. That would have been the appropriate way for him to leave the military - By accepting the consequences of his own actions.

We live by the choices we make in life, that is, unless we can get a lawyer to go to bat for us by telling the world that our fault really isn't our fault.

Article is here.

I see your point; however, how is that any different than say getting married and subsequently getting a divorce? While, yes, he went into the military voluntarily (as most people voluntarily get married), he really doesn't know what that entails until he experiences military life (or married life). Maybe once he held a gun in his hand and really thought about killing someone, he had a change of heart. Or, he watched some documentary that really disturbed him and caused him to feel differently about being in the military. People change their minds all the time. Should they suffer consequences as a result? It depends. A man may have to pay his wife child support or spousal support. For guy like this, he shoudl have to reimburse the cost of all of his training and then some. Should he get a dishonorable discharge? Only if he committed a crime.

These are just my thoughts. Regardless, I thought you did a fabulous job laying out your argument as to why you had a problem with the decision.

WI Crippler · Apr 3, 2007

aps said:
I see your point; however, how is that any different than say getting married and subsequently getting a divorce? While, yes, he went into the military voluntarily (as most people voluntarily get married), he really doesn't know what that entails until he experiences military life (or married life). Maybe once he held a gun in his hand and really thought about killing someone, he had a change of heart. Or, he watched some documentary that really disturbed him and caused him to feel differently about being in the military. People change their minds all the time. Should they suffer consequences as a result? It depends. A man may have to pay his wife child support or spousal support. For guy like this, he shoudl have to reimburse the cost of all of his training and then some. Should he get a dishonorable discharge? Only if he committed a crime.

These are just my thoughts. Regardless, I thought you did a fabulous job laying out your argument as to why you had a problem with the decision.

Well if he was a concientous objector prior to enlisting, then why would he enlist in the first place?? If he suddenly became aware that he was against it, I would chalk it up to boot camp being alot tougher than he thought, and he looked for a way out.
Just my two cents, since I have seen guys do all sorts of things to escape the "horrors" of USMC boot camp....:lol:

aps · Apr 3, 2007

WI Crippler said:
Well if he was a concientous objector prior to enlisting, then why would he enlist in the first place?? If he suddenly became aware that he was against it, I would chalk it up to boot camp being alot tougher than he thought, and he looked for a way out.
Just my two cents, since I have seen guys do all sorts of things to escape the "horrors" of USMC boot camp....:lol:

I think he was NOT a conscientious objector until after he enlisted.

Ikari · Apr 3, 2007

There are drop outs from the Marines, people whom don't make it through training. That's one thing, but getting out of your duty because you are going to claim "conscientious objector" doesn't make sense. Something of the job is known before hand. While you may not know how tough it is to be a part of the Marines, it's another to ignore that the Marines are sent in, pretty much first, to take out objectives and enemies. This had to be known before hand, thus conscientious objector doesn't make much sense. It seems to me this person merely wanted to get out of the contract he signed with the armed forces. If this was a draft, that would be one thing. But it wasn't so I am not buying this guys story nor do I agree with the courts allowing him to leave. I think if we are to allow people to leave the military without any reason, like this case, that compensation to the armed forces and Marines is due on the part of the soldier wishing to escape his duties. IMO, this case is about the same as a soldier going AWOL because they don't want to fight.

Datamonkee · Apr 3, 2007

Judge orders Marine reservist's discharge - Los Angeles Times

"Lance Cpl. Robert Zabala, 23, said he joined the Marines as part of a family tradition of military service. But he said he was shocked during boot camp here to find such a strong emphasis on killing"

Uhm, HELLO?!? .. The Marines... None of the military services have the reputation of absolute military discipline and total killing machines like the Marines. How can you NOT know? Especially with it being a 'family tradition'. He was weak, and some ambulance chasing lawyer sniffed out a good media story. That should have NEVER even made it to civilian court. Sets an extremely bad precedence. I'm with Ikari, this guy pansied out of his responsibilities and the Marines are better without him.

Ikari · Apr 3, 2007

This opens up too many doors for people to enter into the military to get money for college and such (my money) and then get out at the slightest sign of trouble calling it conscientious objection. In times of a draft this sort of thing makes sense because there really could be people whom didn't join the military because they are morally opposed to the actions the military must engage in. However, with out a draft you have voluntarily entered into a contract and because we have the right to unlimited contract, having voluntarily agreed to the terms of the contract you must serve them. If you wish to break the contract, than you must pay some form of restitution to the other party for doing so.

Jerry · Apr 3, 2007

danarhea said:
A judge has ordered the Marines to release a recruit as a conscientious objector. I have a problem with this decision, and I will explain it in 3 parts.

Article is here.

An instructor showed recruits a "motivational clip" showing Iraqi corpses, explosions, gunfights and rockets set to the song "Bodies," by the heavy-metal band Drowning Pool. The lyrics included "Let the bodies hit the floor," and Zabala said he cried -- his only time while in boot camp -- while other recruits nodded their heads in time with the beat and smiled.

What a ****ing *****!
I saw that very clip on Militery.com's Shock and Awe section a few months ago. It's bad azz!

You shouldn't be allowed to back out of a contract like this.

jamesrage · Apr 4, 2007

danarhea said:
A judge has ordered the Marines to release a recruit as a conscientious objector. I have a problem with this decision, and I will explain it in 3 parts.

1) The kid knew what he was getting into when he joined. The Marines train "killing machines" for battle. When at war, you are supposed to kill. That is the nature of war.

2) Conscientious objector status was created under the old draft system, because our government realized that some people had legitimate religious or moral differences of opinion with the government about serving in the military. That is understandable, and the government took that into account. This DID NOT APPLY to those who enlisted, since the action of enlisting demonstrated that no special religious or moral difference of opinion existed in the first place.

3) By letting this kid change his mind, the court has set a precedent which allows anyone in the military to "change their minds" about their own enlistments, which were completely voluntary in the first place. No military, even the all-powerful US military, can work properly under this type of paradigm.

This is a no-brainer, but a court got it completely wrong. While, in this particular circumstance, the stockade might not be the best recommendation, the kid should at least have gotten a dishonorable discharge if he refused orders. That would have been the appropriate way for him to leave the military - By accepting the consequences of his own actions.

We live by the choices we make in life, that is, unless we can get a lawyer to go to bat for us by telling the world that our fault really isn't our fault.

Article is here.

I think conscientious objector has got to be the biggest load of bull **** ever.Military is about war,it does not matter what war or who the president is. Joining the military and bitching about having to got to war would be like joining the mafia and complaining about organized crime or Joining PETA and whining you can't eat meat and can't wear fur or joining the SWAT team and whining that you might get shot.When you sign your name on that dotted line you with your own free will are choosing to go to any war no matter who we are fighting and why and to defend this country against other countries no matter what country it is and why they are attacking.

If he did not want to go to war he should have never enlisted in the first place.The military should toss his *** in military prison.

Hatuey · Apr 4, 2007

jamesrage said:
I think conscientious objector has got to be the biggest load of bull **** ever.Military is about war,it does not matter what war or who the president is. Joining the military and bitching about having to got to war would be like joining the mafia and complaining about organized crime or Joining PETA and whining you can't eat meat and can't wear fur or joining the SWAT team and whining that you might get shot.When you sign your name on that dotted line you with your own free will are choosing to go to any war no matter who we are fighting and why and to defend this country against other countries no matter what country it is and why they are attacking.

If he did not want to go to war he should have never enlisted in the first place.The military should toss his *** in military prison.

Actually...PETA members do eat meat(not all but a big portion of them do). As long as the animal it came from was raised in a good environment. They only complain about companies like KFC and MacDonalds because of the unhealthy living environments they keep the animals they use in.

jamesrage · Apr 4, 2007

Datamonkee said:
Judge orders Marine reservist's discharge - Los Angeles Times

"Lance Cpl. Robert Zabala, 23, said he joined the Marines as part of a family tradition of military service. But he said he was shocked during boot camp here to find such a strong emphasis on killing"

Uhm, HELLO?!? .. The Marines... None of the military services have the reputation of absolute military discipline and total killing machines like the Marines. How can you NOT know? Especially with it being a 'family tradition'. He was weak, and some ambulance chasing lawyer sniffed out a good media story. That should have NEVER even made it to civilian court. Sets an extremely bad precedence. I'm with Ikari, this guy pansied out of his responsibilities and the Marines are better without him.

I agree,it should have never made it to civilian court because it is military matter not a civilian.I bet everyone in his platoon was calling him a *****,Heck I bet everyone in the military is calling this guy a *****.

Ikari · Apr 4, 2007

jamesrage said:
I think conscientious objector has got to be the biggest load of bull **** ever.

The only thing which doesn't make this true is the draft. If someone does not willingly enter service, they can claim conscientious objection. I believe that to go out the window when you willingly (like in this case) join the military.

WI Crippler · Apr 4, 2007

jamesrage said:
I agree,it should have never made it to civilian court because it is military matter not a civilian.I bet everyone in his platoon was calling him a *****,Heck I bet everyone in the military is calling this guy a *****.

Yeah pretty much. Maybe the Air Force guys will sympathize??

Sorry, just had to take a jab there :2wave:

jamesrage · Apr 4, 2007

aps said:
I see your point; however, how is that any different than say getting married and subsequently getting a divorce? While, yes, he went into the military voluntarily (as most people voluntarily get married), he really doesn't know what that entails until he experiences military life (or married life). Maybe once he held a gun in his hand and really thought about killing someone, he had a change of heart. Or, he watched some documentary that really disturbed him and caused him to feel differently about being in the military. People change their minds all the time. Should they suffer consequences as a result? It depends. A man may have to pay his wife child support or spousal support. For guy like this, he shoudl have to reimburse the cost of all of his training and then some

Judging by his comments in a article he was already a conscience objector before he even joined.

Judge orders Marine reservist's discharge - Los Angeles Times
Lance Cpl. Robert Zabala, 23, said he joined the Marines as part of a family tradition of military service. But he said he was shocked during boot camp here to find such a strong emphasis on killing"

Personally I think he is lying about being shocked that the Marines would have such a strong emphasis on killing.I am sure that since his family members are or were marines they would have told him about the marines and perhaps watched military movies.Anyone with a brain knows the military would have a emphasis on killing.

. Should he get a dishonorable discharge?

Yes he should get a dishonroable discharge.Honorable discharge suggest that you served honorably.Leaving military service before one's contract expires when it is not due to a health reason is dishonorable.

danarhea · Apr 4, 2007

jamesrage said:
I agree,it should have never made it to civilian court because it is military matter not a civilian.I bet everyone in his platoon was calling him a *****,Heck I bet everyone in the military is calling this guy a *****.

I think that ******s are calling this guy a *****. :mrgreen:

jamesrage · Apr 4, 2007

Hatuey said:
Actually...PETA members do eat meat(not all but a big portion of them do). As long as the animal it came from was raised in a good environment. They only complain about companies like KFC and MacDonalds because of the unhealthy living environments they keep the animals they use in.

You still get the point I was trying to illustrate?

Ikari · Apr 4, 2007

Hatuey said:
Actually...PETA members do eat meat(not all but a big portion of them do). As long as the animal it came from was raised in a good environment. They only complain about companies like KFC and MacDonalds because of the unhealthy living environments they keep the animals they use in.

Speaking of PETA...Penn and Teller have a little something to say about them
LiveLeak.com - Penn & Teller: The truth about PETA

jamesrage · Apr 4, 2007

danarhea said:
I think that ******s are calling this guy a *****. :mrgreen:

I haven't seen any of the democrats in office or anti-american liberals here on DP call that marine a *****,do you have any quotes or articles to back up your claim?:mrgreen:

Trajan Octavian Titus · Apr 4, 2007

I don't really give a crap about the legal reasoning, but if he doesn't want to be in the Marines then they should get him the hell out, having unprofessional soldiers who didn't want to be there was a huge problem in the Vietnam era, the volunteer army has changed all that, plus this little bitch would just be on CNN after his service making up stories about attrocities and burning villages in a fashion remeniscent of Ghengis Khan.

Navy Pride · Apr 4, 2007

This guy is nothing more then a coward.....good riddance.......

jamesrage · Apr 4, 2007

Ikari said:
The only thing which doesn't make this true is the draft. If someone does not willingly enter service, they can claim conscientious objection. I believe that to go out the window when you willingly (like in this case) join the military.

You do have a point.However even in a draft there should be some guidelines to what constitutes a conscience objector. Simply being against the war or believing the war is wrong should not qualify one for conscience objector.

Judge orders discharge of an anti-war Marine

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