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Judge doesn't buy state secrets privilege, OKs wiretap suit

Kernel Sanders

Norville Rogers
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Source [Ars Technica | Judge doesn't buy state secrets privilege, OKs wiretap suit]


I don't see the harm in allowing warrantless wiretapping to be challenged in court and I'm glad that the courts aren't allowing the suit to just get buried. If it's constitutional let the courts declare it so, if not it is unconscionable to allow it to continue.
 
If it's constitutional let the courts declare it so, if not it is unconscionable to allow it to continue.

I don't find that very persuasive. Why let the Courts decide?

The courts have a limited role in our government, as evidenced by the fact that the Constitution grants to the legislative branch the power to determine the structure of the judiciary and, in essence, the extent of its appellate authority. While judicial review is surely implied in the Constitution (without the power to adjudicate or interpret the judiciary has no effective authority), it was never a primary focus at the constitutional convention and its boundaries have been determined by the judiciary itself. Not surprisingly, the judiciary has concluded that the power is supreme. And, not surprisingly, we now have citizens meekly deferring to that alleged supreme power to be the final interpreter of the Constitution.

Consequently, we have comments like the one I quoted above. Total deference to an unelected and unaccountable body to determine an important public policy issue.

Weak.
 

Why let the courts decide constitutionality? Maybe because that's their job.....

Here's a nice guide in case you get stuck

Source [Government Printing Office (Ben's Guide to US Government for Kids) | Judicial Branch]

 
Why let the courts decide constitutionality? Maybe because that's their job.....

That was funny...

But you ducked what I think is a legitimate point.

You do agree that the Constitution contains the concepts of separation of power, checks and balances, and co-equal branches, right?

What you're ascribing to, well, what the Judicial Branch has done, the courts is judicial supremacy which totally wrecks these aforementioned constitutional concepts, no?

If the Court determines that the surveillance, as conducted in this instance, was unconstitutional, well, what happens when Congress passes legislation authorizing the Executive to conduct that type of surveillance?

If you say that the courts strike it down then you're advocating for a superior branch of government, a perversion of the founders intentions.
 

The issue in this suit really has nothing to do with "constitutionality." It's about whether the common law "state secret" privilege preempts the FISA's provisions allowing "aggrieved persons" to sue (Court held in July that it didn't), and now, whether the P's in this case qualify as "aggrieved persons" (which it just held that they did).

And before anyone goes off about liberal Kalifornia judges, SAN FRANCISCO / Walker becomes chief district judge
 

Congress can remove the ability of the courts to hear those cases.
 
That was funny...

But you ducked what I think is a legitimate point.

You do agree that the Constitution contains the concepts of separation of power, checks and balances, and co-equal branches, right?

Indeed, which is why federal judges are appointed by the executive branch and confirmed by the legislative. The judicial branch itself is a check on the legislative branch. What better system than the courts would you suggest to ensure that the legislative branch does not create laws that violate the supreme law of the land?

What you're ascribing to, well, what the Judicial Branch has done, the courts is judicial supremacy which totally wrecks these aforementioned constitutional concepts, no?

Not at all. The judicial branch cannot legislate, it can only determine if existing legislation is illegal or interpret the existing language of existing legislation. It must work entirely within the framework that is set by the legislative branch

If the Court determines that the surveillance, as conducted in this instance, was unconstitutional, well, what happens when Congress passes legislation authorizing the Executive to conduct that type of surveillance?

Nothing. However, when such legislation is challenged in court the judicial branch can strike said legislation down as unconstitutional. Ya know - check the power of Congress

If you say that the courts strike it down then you're advocating for a superior branch of government, a perversion of the founders intentions.

I can't believe that you're so badly misunderstanding something as fundamental as checks and balances. Judicial review is an essential part of that system

Source [US Constitution Online | Constitutional Topic: Checks and Balances]

 

This particular decision rejects the government's attempt to dismiss the suit on the grounds of 'state secrets.' The suit itself challenges warrantless wiretapping.
 
FWIW, there's are non-trivial arguments questioning the essentiallity or even validity of judicial review's place in our system.

Harvard University Press: Law and Judicial Duty by Philip Hamburger

That synopsis doesn't actually state any of the book's arguments, which makes it impossible to debate. The most it says is this


That paragraph seems to indicate more of a problem with the courts interpreting the laws than with the courts declaring laws unconstitutional. I don't see how the constitution has any meaning at all unless the courts can strike down laws that violate it.
 
Congress can remove the ability of the courts to hear those cases.

And the courts could find Congress' action unconstitutional. :mrgreen:
 

Notice that I argued judicial review was an implicit authority granted to the Courts?

Okay, notice, too, that my issue is the evolution of that implied authority to judicial supremacy.

Any thoughts?

Not at all. The judicial branch cannot legislate, it can only determine if existing legislation is illegal or interpret the existing language of existing legislation. It must work entirely within the framework that is set by the legislative branch

The problem, of course, is that judicial supremacy is acting to impose on the other branches an obligation to heed its decisions on the meaning of the Constitution. Hence, the extreme deference being paid to the judiciary to settle political questions/issues and arguments that political issues can only be resolved by judicial decisions.

This is what's so funny. There are so many people whining that the president and Congress cannot change the meaning of the Consitution. That's true. Somehow it never seems to occur to them that neither can the Supreme Court judicially change the meaning of the Constitution. Yet so often the Court has presumed to do just that, and gotten away with it. And your faith in judicial supremacy remains unbroken.

Nothing. However, when such legislation is challenged in court the judicial branch can strike said legislation down as unconstitutional. Ya know - check the power of Congress

The Framers did not grant to the judicialry a broad power to veto, i.e., strike down legislative acts.

Judicial activism has led to court rulings effectively preempting congressional legislation. Roe, for example, has effectively prevented any serious abortion-related legislation now for thirty years. This ain't merely a check, it's a usurptation of legislative power.

I can't believe that you're so badly misunderstanding something as fundamental as checks and balances. Judicial review is an essential part of that system

Funny, I argue that judicial review is an implied power granted to the judiciary. I then argue that judicial supremacy, how the court behaves now, upsets the concepts of checks and balances, separation of powers, and co-equality.

But then you claim I am woefully misunderstanding these concepts?

Dude, you can throw out such accusations but they are not substitutes for reasoning discussion.
 
That synopsis doesn't actually state any of the book's arguments, which makes it impossible to debate. The most it says is this

I don't necessarily agree with it so I wasn't bringing it up to debate, I was just pointing out that there are legal scholars who argue that the entire idea of judicial review was based on faulty assumptions and should have been limited or even prohibited.


Conversely, it could be argued that the Constitution has no meaning when the courts can reinterpret it however they like.

edit: If you want more discussion of that book, they did a series on it over at Volokh.

The Volokh Conspiracy - Hamburger?s Law & Judicial Duty. Part 1: ?Judicial Review.?
 
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