• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!
  • Welcome to our archives. No new posts are allowed here.

Jesus was a sinner

A lot of things changed after Jesus. We no longer slaughter lambs nor stone people to death...among other things.

A lot of things changed after the crucifixion of Jesus, at least according to Paul. Jesus broke the Old Covenant laws prior to the crucifixion, before all those things had changed.
 
The Bible says that touching human uncleanness is a sin:



The Bible also says that lepers were a form of human uncleanness:



The Bible further says that Jesus touched leper:



Jesus touched human uncleanness, which the Bible says was a sin. Why is it then said that Jesus lived a sinless life?

Being unclean wasn't a sin. Having sex made someone unclean for a day. Childbirth was considered unclean, yet sex in marriage and giving birth are not sinful and never were considered sinful. What the Bible is talking about in Leviticus 5 is unintentional sin and the sacrifice required under Leviticus law. Jesus never sinned.
 
It's about the heart of the law... not the letter. THAT, is what the OP fails to comprehend.

If the book of Leviticus was inspired, then why did its letters not reflect it's heart?

Furthermore, if it is the heart of the law that matters, and not the letter, then people should pay a little more attention to Matt 7:12, and a little less attention to Leviticus 18:22.

I don't kill people because I don't want them to kill me. I don't steal from people, because I don't want them stealing from me. I don't try and prevent gay couples from getting the benefits of marriage, because I wouldn't want them doing so to me. I do go down on my girlfriend because that is what I would have her do to me.

I am all for following the spirit of the law and ignoring the letter. So was Jesus by all appearances.
 
Being unclean wasn't a sin. Having sex made someone unclean for a day. Childbirth was considered unclean, yet sex in marriage and giving birth are not sinful and never were considered sinful. What the Bible is talking about in Leviticus 5 is unintentional sin and the sacrifice required under Leviticus law. Jesus never sinned.

Touching anything unclean was a sin, and required a sin offering as atonement. If you touched something that you didn't realize was unclean and then later discovered that you had touched something unclean, you were required to "confess in what way [you] have sinned." (Leviticus 5:5) Then you would have to kill a female lamb or goat from the flock.

Touching anything unclean, and human uncleanness in particular are specifically addressed as sins in Leviticus 5, along with taking thoughtless oaths.

“‘If anyone becomes aware that they are guilty—if they unwittingly touch anything ceremonially unclean (whether the carcass of an unclean animal, wild or domestic, or of any unclean creature that moves along the ground) and they are unaware that they have become unclean, but then they come to realize their guilt; 3 or if they touch human uncleanness (anything that would make them unclean) even though they are unaware of it, but then they learn of it and realize their guilt; 4 or if anyone thoughtlessly takes an oath to do anything, whether good or evil (in any matter one might carelessly swear about) even though they are unaware of it, but then they learn of it and realize their guilt— (Leviticus 5:2-4)

After addressing exactly what sins it is talking about Leviticus then gives rules for what to to about it:

when anyone becomes aware that they are guilty in any of these matters, they must confess in what way they have sinned. 6 As a penalty for the sin they have committed, they must bring to the LORD a female lamb or goat from the flock as a sin offering[a]; and the priest shall make atonement for them for their sin. (Leviticus 5:5-6)
 
Last edited:
I thought Jesus said "I did not come to replace the Old Testament Scriptures, I came to complete them!"

Matthew 5:17

He said that he did not come to replace the law and the prophets, but to fulfill them. According to the majority of Christians, "the law and the prophets" means the Old Testament scriptures, but according to Jesus Himself, "the law and the prophets" means "In everything, do to others as you would have them do to you." (Matt 7:12)

Things in the old testament that fall outside the scope of the Golden Maxim do not seem to be regarded as the true "law and the prophets" according to Jesus, since He claims that the Golden Maxim encompasses all the law and all the prophets. It is also interesting to note that whenever anything outside the scope of the Golden maxim is discussed, Jesus refers to it as Moses' law, or 'tradition' rather than as God's law.

For example. Divorce is allowed in the old testament:

If a man marries a woman who becomes displeasing to him because he finds something indecent about her, and he writes her a certificate of divorce, gives it to her and sends her from his house, 2 and if after she leaves his house she becomes the wife of another man, 3 and her second husband dislikes her and writes her a certificate of divorce, gives it to her and sends her from his house, or if he dies, 4 then her first husband, who divorced her, is not allowed to marry her again after she has been defiled. That would be detestable in the eyes of the LORD. Do not bring sin upon the land the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance. (Deuteronomy 24:1-4)

This is what Jesus says about it in the New Testament:

Some Pharisees came to him to test him. They asked, “Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any and every reason?”

4 “Haven’t you read,” he replied, “that at the beginning the Creator ‘made them male and female,’[a] 5 and said, ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh’? 6 So they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let no one separate.”

7 “Why then,” they asked, “did Moses command that a man give his wife a certificate of divorce and send her away?”

8 Jesus replied, “Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning. 9 I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery.


Notice that Jesus does not say "God allowed you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard" nor does He say "God told Moses to allow you to divorce because your hearts were hard." The law in Deuteronomy was not God's law, but Moses' law according to Jesus.

According to the law of Moses, divorce was permitted. According to the law of God, divorce was not permitted. Most Christians seem to see this as Jesus changing God's law to make it stricter with regards to divorce, but Jesus Himself claimed that God's law was immutable and unchanging:

“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished." (Matt 5:17-18)

The only reasonable conclusion is that Jesus was correcting people's misconceptions about what the law actually was to begin with.

You see, people read the book of Leviticus and thought themselves wise because they had "the law of the LORD," when really the "lying pen of the scribes had handled it falsely."

"'How can you say, "We are wise, for we have the law of the LORD," when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely?" (Jeremiah 8:8)
 
Back
Top Bottom