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Oh hell. This is the kind of crazy that even Hollywood backs away from.
Let's think about this for a second. If Jefferson is such a divisive figure that we need to raze his monument then every principle this nation was founded on is equally as divisive and we should just get rid of the Constitution, dissolve the union and appoint a civil rights committee to round up and reeducate everyone who has ever done anything which is offensive to anyone else.
I said slave-owning presidents, didn't I?Oh, come-on now!
Maybe we should get rid of that George Washington guy too - I heard he also was a slave oner, and had quite a few.
And those 'Founding Fathers'? Forget about it!
"Out the door with all of them"!
Based on what. YOUR morals? I see you are flying the Gay Flag. I see that as a pretty colossal and cruel moral failure on your part.I agree with most of what you wrote, but there was nothing "simple" about his owning slaves. It's a pretty colossal and cruel moral failure on his part.
Who are "they?"See how it usually starts, with a mere mention...a pondering of the concept. They float the idea out there probably hoping it'll pick up steam.
Probably sometime around "never." Though we have already seen Texas try to purge the historical fact that the US Civil War was first and foremost about slavery, so...I wonder when they'll want to posthumously impeach every slave-owning President and remove them from the history books.
Uh huh. So instead of recognizing that slippery slope arguments are rarely valid, you just run with one anyway, based on the flimsiest of premises. Nice.Right now this is all far fetched, but I don't trust this to end with just a Confederate flag.
Oops.I said slave-owning presidents, didn't I?
But you believe he was a racist don't you?
That said, Jefferson is a very complex figure in American history, and we should teach and remember and discuss all the facets of his life and choices. We should not try to sweep under the rug the facts that he owned slaves, that he had 6 illegitimate children with Sally Hemings, and that his relationship to her was probably not consensual, and so forth.
Why do you think it's "spectacular"? The fact is that that many people in Jefferson's time opposed slavery on moral grounds and knew that black people were not inferior. Therefore, one cannot logically say that people who believed slavery was right were just a "product of their time" since their time included the belief that slavery was wrong.You claimed, and I'll quote it again, "Ultimately, the excuse that people were just a product of their time is nonsense". That's a spectacular assertion.
Jefferson Memorial, Confederate statues enter national race debate - LA Times
See how it usually starts, with a mere mention...a pondering of the concept. They float the idea out there probably hoping it'll pick up steam. No doubt they're probably already fantasizing about bulldozers coming in. I wonder when they'll want to posthumously impeach every slave-owning President and remove them from the history books. Probably only a matter time before more crazy ideas like this get floated. Should we include every President that said the word "nigger"? How far should we go in deleting those things that offend? How about the latinos?
Should we disassemble the United States and give them back the land we allegedly took? Right now this is all far fetched, but I don't trust this to end with just a Confederate flag.
You don't think Jefferson knew that it was cruel to allow his overseers to beat slaves? Really?It was not a cruel system to him and amongst many of his peers, and it was not cruel to his father and his fathers before him... He was a revolutionary in much of his thinking... just not slavery...
We wouldn't elect a slave owner to the presidency today! Why would we honor one from yesterday?
I honestly don't know... but I've heard justifications of slavery back then.... much like how we treat children. Children are essentially slaves to their parents. Beating used to be a common thing for discipline, not just of slaves, but for children and criminals as well. I would think he would think it was cruel to unjustly beat a slave just because you felt like it.You don't think Jefferson knew that it was cruel to allow his overseers to beat slaves? Really?
We wouldn't elect a slave owner to the presidency today! Why would we honor one from yesterday?
Did I say "equal measure?" No. My point is, it should not be left out. If you visit Monticello, the tour guides should certainly not omit that he designed it, and its architectural importance -- nor should they omit that he owned slaves, and that most of the people on the plantation were slaves.Do you really think that children should be taught in equal measure about Jefferson's personal life and his ideas?
How many people today understand chattel slavery, and how degrading it was? Not as many as one might think.How many teenagers these days know what Jeffersonian democracy is?
I don't see any genuine movement to purge his memory. What I see is right-wingers who are freaked out about state governments and commercial entities turning their backs on the confederate battle flag (a long overdue measure), and The Dukes of Hazzard getting pulled (a bit trivial, but hardly a threat to American culture), and see slippery slopes everywhere.A colossal figure in every respect, the man should not be reduced to snide attacks and "He owned slaves, he was evil, let's purge his memory..." rhetoric, which is gaining ground.
Did I say "equal measure?" No. My point is, it should not be left out. If you visit Monticello, the tour guides should certainly not omit that he designed it, and its architectural importance -- nor should they omit that he owned slaves, and that most of the people on the plantation were slaves.
How many people today understand chattel slavery, and how degrading it was? Not as many as one might think.
A tour guide at a plantation, for example, wrote an article for Vox which described reactions to discussions of slavery on the tours:
I used to lead tours at a plantation. You won
I don't see any genuine movement to purge his memory. What I see is right-wingers who are freaked out about state governments and commercial entities turning their backs on the confederate battle flag (a long overdue measure), and The Dukes of Hazzard getting pulled (a bit trivial, but hardly a threat to American culture), and see slippery slopes everywhere.
And yes, I do think it is important to recognize that Jefferson both advocated for human freedom, and owned slaves. Same with Washington and other prominent politicians at that time. We should also recognize that Hamilton and Adams and others were against slavery and did not own slaves.
She might very well be stupid, but I think you might agree with her if you knew the context in which she is speaking. She was comparing the call for taking down the Confederate flag with Thomas Jefferson's statue. I don't believe she was advocating for it's removal.
While discussing the movement to eradicate the presence of the Confederate flag, a CNN host asked whether we should also bring down a monument to a president who owned slaves.
After last week’s slaughter of nine black churchgoers by a white gunman in Charleston, South Carolina, aroused debate over the Confederate flag and inspired at least six major retailers to ban its sale, CNN host Ashleigh Banfield asked co-host Don Lemon whether this means we should also take down a memorial to former President Thomas Jefferson because of his slave ownership in the 1700s and early 1800s.
"Jefferson owned slaves," Banfield said, noting that a previous guest had made a "good point" in bringing that up. "Thomas Jefferson owned slaves -- third president of the United States. And there is a monument to him in the capital city of the United States. No one ever asks for that to come down. Is it equal [to the Confederate flag]?"
CNN Host Asks If Jefferson Memorial Is Equal With Confederate Flag
Oh hell. This is the kind of crazy that even Hollywood backs away from.
Let's think about this for a second. If Jefferson is such a divisive figure that we need to raze his monument then every principle this nation was founded on is equally as divisive and we should just get rid of the Constitution, dissolve the union and appoint a civil rights committee to round up and reeducate everyone who has ever done anything which is offensive to anyone else.
Apples and oranges.
Because they didn't live today? Do you think Thomas Jefferson would have been a slave owner if he grew up in today? Absolutely not... The only reason you ARE NOT a slave owner, is because you did not grow up in upperclass 17th century America.
Well really it's because I probably couldn't afford one. I guess your saying that had you grown up in early 20th century Germany that you'd have been a Nazi soldier or running a concentration camp. Do you know that there were people morally opposed to slavery as it was being practiced?
So which one of us is the broken clock? :lol:
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