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See how it usually starts, with a mere mention...a pondering of the concept. They float the idea out there probably hoping it'll pick up steam. No doubt they're probably already fantasizing about bulldozers coming in. I wonder when they'll want to posthumously impeach every slave-owning President and remove them from the history books. Probably only a matter time before more crazy ideas like this get floated. Should we include every President that said the word "nigger"? How far should we go in deleting those things that offend? How about the latinos?The Thomas Jefferson Memorial, which has stood near the banks of the Potomac River in Washington for more than 70 years, is a classical tribute to the author of the Declaration of Independence and the third U.S. president..
This week, the Jefferson Memorial was drawn into the national debate about race following the shooting deaths of nine people in a predominantly black church in South Carolina last week. It joins other public statues depicting Southern or Confederate figures, including Jefferson Davis and Robert E. Lee, that some are arguing represent the country's racist past and should be removed.
CNN anchor Ashleigh Banfield this week questioned whether the Jefferson Memorial should be taken down because Jefferson owned slaves. "There is a monument to him in the capital city of the United States. No one ever asks for that to come down," Banfield said.
Jefferson Memorial, Confederate statues enter national race debate - LA Times
See how it usually starts, with a mere mention...a pondering of the concept. They float the idea out there probably hoping it'll pick up steam. No doubt they're probably already fantasizing about bulldozers coming in. I wonder when they'll want to posthumously impeach every slave-owning President and remove them from the history books. Probably only a matter time before more crazy ideas like this get floated. Should we include every President that said the word "nigger"? How far should we go in deleting those things that offend? How about the latinos?
Should we disassemble the United States and give them back the land we allegedly took? Right now this is all far fetched, but I don't trust this to end with just a Confederate flag.
Jefferson Memorial, Confederate statues enter national race debate - LA Times
See how it usually starts, with a mere mention...a pondering of the concept. They float the idea out there probably hoping it'll pick up steam. No doubt they're probably already fantasizing about bulldozers coming in. I wonder when they'll want to posthumously impeach every slave-owning President and remove them from the history books. Probably only a matter time before more crazy ideas like this get floated. Should we include every President that said the word "nigger"? How far should we go in deleting those things that offend? How about the latinos?
Should we disassemble the United States and give them back the land we allegedly took? Right now this is all far fetched, but I don't trust this to end with just a Confederate flag.
I agree with most of what you wrote, but there was nothing "simple" about his owning slaves. It's a pretty colossal and cruel moral failure on his part. I also don't know that Jefferson's ideas were particularly "amazing". What's amazing that is other people had the courage and moral will to take the ideas he reserved for wealthy white male property owners and apply them to everyone else.There's also alot of crap that gets mentioned and nothing ever comes of it.
There's never going to be a following for removing statues of our founding fathers simply for owning slaves.
There's a large difference between Jefferson and the confederacy. One was a large movement based on the idea that blacks are inferior and should be slaves and everything else was secondary. Jefferson was a great thinker with amazing ideas and ideals and that's what he's appreciated for. But he wasn't a perfect person and also held terrible ideas and did terrible things that were acceptable in his days.
Jefferson Memorial, Confederate statues enter national race debate - LA Times
See how it usually starts, with a mere mention...a pondering of the concept. They float the idea out there probably hoping it'll pick up steam. No doubt they're probably already fantasizing about bulldozers coming in. I wonder when they'll want to posthumously impeach every slave-owning President and remove them from the history books. Probably only a matter time before more crazy ideas like this get floated. Should we include every President that said the word "nigger"? How far should we go in deleting those things that offend? How about the latinos?
Should we disassemble the United States and give them back the land we allegedly took? Right now this is all far fetched, but I don't trust this to end with just a Confederate flag.
I agree with most of what you wrote, but there was nothing "simple" about his owning slaves. It's a pretty colossal and cruel moral failure on his part. I also don't know that Jefferson's ideas were particularly "amazing". What's amazing that is other people had the courage and moral will to take the ideas he reserved for wealthy white male property owners and apply them to everyone else.
I agree with most of what you wrote, but there was nothing "simple" about his owning slaves. It's a pretty colossal and cruel moral failure on his part. I also don't know that Jefferson's ideas were particularly "amazing". What's amazing that is other people had the courage and moral will to take the ideas he reserved for wealthy white male property owners and apply them to everyone else.
There's also a lot of crap that gets mentioned and nothing ever comes of it.
There's never going to be a following for removing statues of our founding fathers simply for owning slaves.
There's a large difference between Jefferson and the confederacy. One was a large movement based on the idea that blacks are inferior and should be slaves and everything else was secondary. Jefferson was a great thinker with amazing ideas and ideals and that's what he's appreciated for. But he wasn't a perfect person and also held terrible ideas and did terrible things that were acceptable in his days.
So which one of us is the broken clock? :lol:You of all people who almost never agrees with me.I'm not sure what to say.
I agree with most of what you wrote, but there was nothing "simple" about his owning slaves. It's a pretty colossal and cruel moral failure on his part. I also don't know that Jefferson's ideas were particularly "amazing". What's amazing that is other people had the courage and moral will to take the ideas he reserved for wealthy white male property owners and apply them to everyone else.
I see. Thanks for clarifying. In that case, I agree. There isn't a large group of Americans who would advocate removing the statue for that aspect of his history alone. I think that there would have to be a significant shift in the way that our culture looks at the founding of our country in order for such a movement to gain steam.I didn't call him owning slaves "simple". Simply was used to denote that I don't think any large movement will form to remove his memorials just over him owning slaves. It would have to involve other things also.
There were plenty of white abolitionists who knew that slavery was wrong. In fact, there were plenty of slave owners who knew that it was wrong. I believe some of the founding fathers themselves expressed conflicted thoughts on slavery. Even further, there were generations of black slaves who also knew that slavery was wrong. In short, there were different opinions on the morality of slavery at the time, so no, it was not universally moral back then.And it's just ignorance on your part. That WAS what was moral back then... the collective determines what is moral and excepted, there is no objective morality which is what many liberals like to say. Slavery had been around the entire length of humanities history. Jefferson had actually laid down the foundations for the cultural mind in the United States to be able to change... Liberty and justice for all.
See how it usually starts, with a mere mention...a pondering of the concept.
There were plenty of white abolitionists who knew that slavery was wrong. In fact, there were plenty of slave owners who knew that it was wrong. I believe some of the founding fathers themselves expressed conflicted thoughts on slavery. Even further, there were generations of black slaves who also knew that slavery was wrong. In short, there were different opinions on the morality of slavery at the time, so no, it was not universally moral back then.
Ultimately, the excuse that people were just a product of their time is nonsense, particularly for Jefferson since he was most definitely exposed to abolitionist thought. He chose to participate in an unjust and cruel activity. There are no excuses.
I do agree with you that morality is subjective though.
Oh, such scandalous contemplation! How dare these people mention or ponder beliefs and ideas! If they keep this up, they'll be acting like people such as Thomas Jefferson!
Ashleigh Banfield is colossally stupid.
And anyone who thinks this new found "guilt" is okay is stupider.
Ultimately, the excuse that people were just a product of their time is nonsense, particularly for Jefferson since he was most definitely exposed to abolitionist thought. He chose to participate in an unjust and cruel activity. There are no excuses.
Presentism doesn't have anything to do with what I said since I based the line you quoted on views about slavery during Jefferson's life.When are we guilty of presentism in this discussion, in your opinion?
Maybe if you were talking about some regular uneducated farm hand, your point would make sense, but you're talking about Thomas Jefferson. He knew better. He chose to participate in a cruel system. And since he's been dead for a couple centuries, I think we can admit that.My statements allow all those exceptions to happen... The fact is, slavery was much more morally ambiguous than it is today, GREATLY so.... and I don't think you have the right to act all high and mighty because you were not born in that time... you have it easy, it's easier for you to realize and make the moral choices.
I just can't get over that this statement is simply false, if that's all the confederate states wanted, they would of had it... Lincoln came close to having an amendment to the constitution that left slavery up to the states. If it was about slavery the war would have ended after a year.... the union was willing to compromise on that front.
Presentism doesn't have anything to do with what I said since I based the line you quoted on views about slavery during Jefferson's life.
Jefferson Memorial, Confederate statues enter national race debate - LA Times
See how it usually starts, with a mere mention...a pondering of the concept. They float the idea out there probably hoping it'll pick up steam. No doubt they're probably already fantasizing about bulldozers coming in. I wonder when they'll want to posthumously impeach every slave-owning President and remove them from the history books. Probably only a matter time before more crazy ideas like this get floated. Should we include every President that said the word "nigger"? How far should we go in deleting those things that offend? How about the latinos?
Should we disassemble the United States and give them back the land we allegedly took? Right now this is all far fetched, but I don't trust this to end with just a Confederate flag.
Maybe if you were talking about some regular uneducated farm hand, your point would make sense, but you're talking about Thomas Jefferson. He knew better. He chose to participate in a cruel system. And since he's been dead for a couple centuries, I think we can admit that.
Oh, come-on now!
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