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Jared Loughner, Alleged Shooter in Gabrielle Giffords Attack, Described by Classmate

Re: Communism + National Socialism = Jared Loughner

Khayembii Communique said:
Lol so because he didn't say the exact words or coin a phrase that means that Lenin was the originator. And no, Lenin did not envision that. You are again wrong.
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I can understand your confusion as initially what you quoted seems a lot like the vanguard party doctrine, but it is not. This is from "The State and Revolution":

And the dictatorship of the proletariat, i.e., the organization of the vanguard of the oppressed as the ruling class for the purpose of suppressing the oppressors
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Those are Lenin's own words and are contrasted strongly with what you quoted. Marx was not talking about an organization or party, but simply referring to the people and he does not suggest them performing the same tasks Lenin mentions.
 
Re: Communism + National Socialism = Jared Loughner

Those are Lenin's own words and are contrasted strongly with what you quoted.
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Yes, the organization of the vanguard. A vanguard of a movement is not a party or an organization...

Moreover, and what is funnier because you probably aren't aware of the nuances involved with the sentence you've quoted, the "vanguard of the oppressed" to which Lenin is referring is the proletariat, which is of course what Marx was referring to:

"The immediate aim of the Communists is the same as that of all other proletarian parties: formation of the proletariat into a class, overthrow of the bourgeois supremacy, conquest of political power by the proletariat. "

Marx was not talking about an organization or party, but simply referring to the people
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Oh he wasn't talking about a Communist Party when he was writing the Manifesto of the Communist Party? And he wasn't referring to Communists as members of the Communist Party? Further, Marx never refers to "the people" because it is completely antithetical to what he believes, i.e. that the concept of "the people" is a false one as "the people" are divided primarily into classes which conflict with one another.

but simply referring to the people and he does not suggest them performing the same tasks Lenin mentions.
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Of course he does.
 
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Re: Communism + National Socialism = Jared Loughner

The modern version of Leninism appears in it's highest form in the Chinese Communist Party. That's where Leninism leads.
 
Re: Communism + National Socialism = Jared Loughner

Hatuey said:
Yes... he kept going on about not having to pay taxes and going back to the gold standard. Now who, have I heard saying that before?
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Really? I have done a lot of research on this guy and I’ve never seen anything attributed to him about paying taxes or going back to the gold standard.

Can you provide a source for this alleged fact? No facts? Now who have I heard saying that before?

That’s right, a democrat sheriff who thinks his opinions are more important than actual facts and the liberals who followed him down his vitriolic rhetoric road.
 
Re: Communism + National Socialism = Jared Loughner


Jared Lee Loughner's statements tied to conspiracy theory - Carrie Budoff Brown - POLITICO.com
Jared Lee Loughner's Worldview a Conspiracy Theory Laundry List [VIDEO]

Google is your friend.
 
Re: Communism + National Socialism = Jared Loughner

Erod said:
Exactly correct.

However, all I've heard on the MSM is that he's the result of Palinesque vitriole drummed up from the Tea Party.

Sad.
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Who invented Communism and Socialism, not Marx, right? Hitler fulfilled the socialistic teaching of Marx in Germany, btw the idea of concentration camps he had cloned by his socialistic friedns in stalin's Russi


______________________
electronic books online
electronic books
 
Re: Communism + National Socialism = Jared Loughner

nikole95 said:
Who invented Communism and Socialism, not Marx, right? Hitler fulfilled the socialistic teaching of Marx in Germany, btw the idea of concentration camps he had cloned by his socialistic friedns in stalin's Russi
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I love ignorant people.

List to me what was socialist about Nazi Germany, I want both economic and social factors.

And concentration camps were used, prior to WW2, in North America by the Spanish, by America during the Phillippine-American war, as well as Tsarist Russia and during the Second Boer War by the British.
 
Re: Communism + National Socialism = Jared Loughner

 
Re: Communism + National Socialism = Jared Loughner

the makeout hobo said:
False. The concentration camp was invented by the British during the Boer War. And Hitler most admired the Turks for their genocide on the Armenians. Get your facts right.
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rof They were invented by the Spanish in Cuba during the 10 year war, and were used by Americans in the Phillipines prior to the Boer War.
 
Re: Communism + National Socialism = Jared Loughner

spud_meister said:
I figured as much, but didn't want to toss it out there, anyway that doesn't preclude him from being ignorant.
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It doesn't but being a spammer defines him. Being ignorant is probably just the motivating factor.
 
Re: Communism + National Socialism = Jared Loughner

Johnny Centrist said:
When I see those posters of Obama with a Hitler mustache I laugh and think "Someone needs to take a European History course".
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Uhm, on top of the even more blatant irony that a black man is equated with Hitler of all people. That this irony doesn't jump into the eye immediately maybe gives some hope people have indeed become a bit colorblind already.
 
Re: Communism + National Socialism = Jared Loughner

Was Hitler a socialist?

I'll just repost what I wrote earlier on that topic:

First, it seems to be en vogue to label anything as "socialism" that's not conservative-style laissez faire capitalism. I think this use of the word doesn't do justice neither to the term "socialism", nor to the concept of a "republican, constitutional system". Nationalizing a few banks, limited regulation of the economy and social welfare systems don't make "socialism". Monarchist-conservative German Chancellor Otto von Bismarck introduced encompassing social welfare systems in the 1880's, including health insurance and public pensions. Obviously, it would be ridiculous to label Bismarck a "socialist".

Then let's have a look at German history: The socialist party SPD (Social Democrats) was the strongest supporter of a constitutional, republican, democratic system during the Kaiserreich, and they were leading the revolution in 1918 to topple monarchy. It was mostly the socialists who established the free, republican Weimar system, along with the Christian Centrists, also for the price of making the communists their enemy. They stood strictly against communism, revolutionary Marxism from the left and fascism or restaurative, authoritarian monarchism from the right. The SPD was the only party to vote against Hitler's "Enabling Act" in 1933, because they wanted to preserve constitutional republicanism. Obviously, "socialism" and flirts with Marxism do not necessarily lead into tyranny. In fact, this brand of political ideology was the only thing that stood against the Nazis in Weimar.

The Nazis, often considered a brand of fascism, were certainly not "socialist" in that original sense of the word. It's true they took many elements from socialism (or rather communism), but they took at least as many ideological elements from the conservative and right side of that time. For example, the main elements of Nazism that are usually closely associated with Nazism today -- militarism, anti-Semitism, racism, imperialistic ambitions -- were taken from the right of that time. It were the monarchist conservatives that had run the country on an ideology of imperialism, racial superiority, militaristic values and ambitions for world domination from 1871 to 1918, often opposed by the socialists, who had a strong internationalist and pacifist wing. That's why the Nazi Party allied with the monarchist-conservative DNVP (National-German People's Party) by the end of Weimar, and why this coalition was the one that finally brought the Nazis into power. And that's why Hitler attempted to sell the myth of a unbroken continuity -- Frederick the Great, Hindenburg, Hitler -- of German nationalism to the masses, at the "Day of Potsdam", when monarchist-conservative President Hindenburg shook hands with Hitler in public. Also, that is why the Nazis called their nation the "Third Reich" (after the "First Reich" of the Holy Roman Empire and the "Second Reich" of the monarchy from 1871 to 1918), and why they skipped the democratic colors black-red-yellow (that were en vogue among liberals, socialists and all people who supported constitutional republicanism) to replace them with the conservative-monarchist colors of black-white-red once again. The constitutional republic of Weimar was accordingly just called "the system" by the Nazis, an allegedly "socialist and democratic abberation" dominated by "socialists, Jews and democrats". The last genuine Germany, in their eyes, had been the conservative Kaiserreich.

The Nazis did all they could to evoke the impression they continue the true conservative tradition of the authoritarian, monarchist Germany, against any attempts for liberal-constitutional revolution from the side of socialists, liberals, or democrats, and in order to do so, they allied with monarchists and conservatives. The Nazis' intellectual elite -- think of law philosopher Carl Schmitt, for example -- was recruited from the so called "conservative revolution" of the 20s, all intellectuals who opposed socialism and republicanism, but instead supported monarchist conservatism, a monarchist restauration or, in the end, Nazism. And the rabid anti-Semitism had been a specialty of the right, before the Nazis took advantage of it, often opposed by socialists who were internationalist and many of which were Jews themselves. And the militaristic "Kadavergehorsam"-authoritarianism was directly taken from the monarchist-conservative playbook, often opposed by pacifist socialists.

But of course, Nazism was not "conservative" or "monarchist", despite these attempts. There were also many socialist elements in Nazism. But just because the Nazis copied these elements, and merged them with elements that originated from the right, doesn't mean they were "socialist" or "left". The Nazis combined elements from both right and left to appeal to as many people as possible. And I'd say the crucial bunch of ideas, which made Nazism so horrible, was not the idea of universal health care i.e. copied from the left, but the militarism, authoritarianism and anti-Semitism copied from the right.

Also, before someone here misunderstands me, let me note that "conservatism" did mean something very different back then, than what it means today. I don't mean to smear conservatism in general. But fact it, the Nazis rode on a wave of conservative thought in 1920s' Germany, and what made them ultimately successful was their attempt at painting themselves as a bulwark against leftist ideas of republicanism, pacifism, equality and internationalism -- in an alliance with conservative monarchists.

The socialists of that time favored equality, and eleminating barriers between different classes and nationalities. Some advocated class warfare to achieve that goal. The Nazis favored nothing of that kind: They were only in favor of equality only insofar as "Volksgenossen" were concerned, but they were strictly against the idea of equality between different nationalities or even races. They did not want class warfare, but race warfare. You may say both is equally bad, but it's obviously a different kind of animal nevertheless.
 
Re: Communism + National Socialism = Jared Loughner

German guy said:
Was Hitler a socialist?
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Yes, Hitler was a Socialist!








You can continue to read here:

HITLER WAS A SOCIALIST
 
Re: Communism + National Socialism = Jared Loughner

some additioan evidences:


 
Re: Communism + National Socialism = Jared Loughner

Alfons, trying to be helpful here with a suggestion, it would seriously help your credibility if you posted credible sources and not tripod links. There is a reason nobody is taking you seriously and that reason is related to a lack of intellectual rigor on the side of most of your links.
 
Re: Communism + National Socialism = Jared Loughner


Mr. Slightly Liberal,

if you have not arguments against my information, than please stay fair.

For all others here is the list of credibly references used in the article from above:



HITLER WAS A SOCIALIST
 
Re: Communism + National Socialism = Jared Loughner

I notice Hitler was wearing pants, just like Stalin. Obviously, both are similar, and since Stalin was a socialist, Hitler must have been one too.

But hey, I heard rumors Obama is wearing pants too. That means he is a socialist as well. Doesn't surprise me, I suspected so much.

But this really came to me as a shock: Sarah Palin is wearing pants too, sometimes!!!! OMG!!! I don't dare to ask, but ... is she socialist too? *scared*
 
Re: Communism + National Socialism = Jared Loughner

Alfons said:
Mr. Slightly Liberal,

if you have not arguments against my information, than please stay fair.
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1. How is pointing out a lack of rigor on behalf of your citations not fair?
2. You have someone claiming to have a Ph.D. making a tripod website? This doesn't seem fishy to you especially since Ph.D.s are supposed to publish?
3. I feel no need to counter your citations until you present ones I feel are worthy of my time, at the minimum, this means wikipedia.
 
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Re: Communism + National Socialism = Jared Loughner

Here Alfons, rather than posting 3rd party material, why don't you refute my earlier post.

 
Re: Communism + National Socialism = Jared Loughner

spud_meister said:
List to me what was socialist about Nazi Germany, I want both economic and social factors.
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Is it ok if I do it?:

1. Private property rights were conditional upon the economic mode of use; if it did not advance Nazi economic goals, the state could nationalize it. Nazi government corporate takeovers, and threatened takeovers, encouraged compliance with government production plans, even if unprofitable for the firm.

2. Agricultural and industrial central planning was a prominent feature of Nazi economics. To tie farmers to the land, selling agricultural land was prohibited; farm ownership was nominally private, but discretion over operations and residual income were proscribed.

3. That was achieved by granting business monopoly rights to marketing boards, to control production and prices with a quota system. Quotas also were established for industrial goods, such as pig iron, steel, aluminium, magnesium, gunpowder, explosives, synthetic rubber, fuels, and electricity.

4. In place of ordinary profit-incentive determining the economy, financial investment was regulated per the needs of the state. The profit incentive for businessmen remained, but was greatly modified: “Fixing of profits, not their suppression, was the official policy of the Nazi party”; however, Nazi agencies replaced the profit-motive that automatically allocated investment, and the course of the economy.

5. Nazi government financing eventually dominated private financial investment, which the proportion of private securities issued falling from over half of the total in 1933–34 to approximately 10 per cent in 1935–38.

6. Heavy business-profit taxes limited self-financing of firms.

7. The largest firms were mostly exempt from taxes on profits, however, government control of these were extensive enough to leave “only the shell of private ownership”.

8. The official decree was stamped into the rim of the silver Reichsmark coins between 1933 through the end of WWII "Gemeinnutz geht vor Eigennutz" or "The common good before self-interest."

Source: Wikipedia

I can provide you with more if you would like.
 
Re: Communism + National Socialism = Jared Loughner

Alfons said:
Who invented Communism and Socialism, not Marx, right? Hitler fulfilled the socialistic teaching of Marx in Germany, btw the idea of concentration camps he had cloned by his socialistic friedns in stalin's Russia.
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Actually I was under the impression that American eugenics was how hitler got the idea for the concentration camps.
 
Re: Communism + National Socialism = Jared Loughner

Johnny Centrist said:
I guess you've never been to a Tea Party rally and seen the Obama posters with a Hitler mustache. Or I guess you never saw that conservative billboard that compared Obama to Hitler.
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Please look at this and get back to me. Someone at a Tea Party Rally gave him a Hitler mustache? Tea Partiers would be taken straight to jail for the things on this site. Liberals got away with it, and they say we incite violence with mustaches and crosshairs. It's laughable.

Death Threats Against Bush at Protests Ignored for Years
 
Re: Communism + National Socialism = Jared Loughner

Alfons said:
Yes, Hitler was a Socialist!









You can continue to read here:

HITLER WAS A SOCIALIST
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Alfons, you and your dead ends. Putting some pictures next to each other isn't really the same thing as proof. German Guy clearly put a lot of thought into his post and covered a lot of points, a five word "rebuttal" with tripod links and not a single argument really doesn't do it justice.
 
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