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It's easier to think of government institutions trump hasn't damaged or destroyed

Craig234

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Well, in the sense that it seems he has damaged or destroyed far more - but then, it's getting hard to think of any he hasn't. Literally. When I say he, of course I mean the oligarchs, acting through Heritage, acting through trump. One that came to mind perhaps was the Smithsonian, but then their history exhibit on presidential impeachments removed trump's. Now this. Presidents protect our national jewel museum. Imagine trump 'building' to improve it.

 
Well, the authors of project 2025- the one Trump claimed to have no knowledge of- wish to transform America's culture as well as its politics. This appears to involve forced ignorance, forced compliance. We can only become another Russia or China or Turkey if our population has been spoon fed plenty of propaganda and penalties for those who do not fall in line.

My sister-in-law's family were teachers and professors in Maoist China. During the cultural revolution their students beat them, mocked them, tortured them. They were sent to work farms. Watching the "3-body Problem" gave me a shiver. Our dear leader is manipulating his followers to distrust and hate scientists and expertise generally. I can imagine it happening here.
 
Cassandra said:
Well, the authors of project 2025- the one Trump claimed to have no knowledge of- wish to transform America's culture as well as its politics.
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Yes, the problem with the phrase 'transform America's culture' is how neutral it is. People supporting the civil rights laws wanted to transform America's culture, so do fascists. Using the same phrase for both gives a wrong sense of equivalency.

Cassandra said:
This appears to involve forced ignorance, forced compliance. We can only become another Russia or China or Turkey if our population has been spoon fed plenty of propaganda and penalties for those who do not fall in line.
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There's a transition from our institutions supporting democracy, restricting forces against it, to where those institutions are controlled to enforce the power against democracy, and individuals have little to say, and it's far more practical to 'just go along'. Anyone who doesn't is 'made an example of'. What is a Russian's option? Say the word war and go to prison 15 years? Ask Navalny. It's important to 'resist', but not easy, as an understatement.

Cassandra said:
My sister-in-law's family were teachers and professors in Maoist China. During the cultural revolution their students beat them, mocked them, tortured them. They were sent to work farms. Watching the "3-body Problem" gave me a shiver.
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Thank you for that personal experience.

Cassandra said:
Our dear leader is manipulating his followers to distrust and hate scientists and expertise generally. I can imagine it happening here.
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It's more than that. It's literally Orwellian, with the state telling the person how many fingers they are holding up, the incorrect number, as control. trump is doing that. It's odd how imbecilic and ignorant he is yet he somehow picked that up as a strategy. Hitler, Mussolini - who trump oddly resembles - and others did similar.
 
For decades Republicans talked and talked of smaller government. They never went through with it. Trump was fooled by all the rhetoric and now he thinks this is going to really improve things.

What will happen is people will suddenly miss that which they have been taking for granted and realize what a stupid idea it was all along.

After the dust settles we will kick the big money corruption out and rebuild our government to serve We, The People, better than it ever did.
 
Boy, do I hope you're right. I pray for America all the time.
 
Peacenik said:
After the dust settles we will kick the big money corruption out and rebuild our government to serve We, The People, better than it ever did.
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There's a real question whether 'the dust will settle', or whether the oligarchic forces now seizing power are a new era, analogous to, say, the Chinese communist party era that isn't going anywhere. They have the massive political machines and power, from the Heritage Foundation to the Federalist Society to most of the media now, to the billionaires with trillions of dollars, and they can rig elections...
 
Very good points, but you can't fool all the people all the time. Most Americans agree there is too much money influencing government. That is potential political capital. The worse the corruption gets, the more pressing the need to identify and fight it. There is a way...
 
Peacenik said:
Very good points, but you can't fool all the people all the time.
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That point is way more relevant when we have strong democracy so it matters. But they're showing they can fool enough people pretty much all the time. It's just not mattering currently if over half the country oppose them in terms of preventing their harm, though it is important for our culture. That needs to become ways to prevent their harm. We cheer the person in Russia protesting and arrested but that doesn't change Putin.
Peacenik said:
Most Americans agree there is too much money influencing government. That is potential political capital. The worse the corruption gets, the more pressing the need to identify and fight it. There is a way...
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But the worse the corruption gets, the more powerful it gets also. Musk made history as the biggest donor, a couple hundred million. Then he got a $54 billion paycheck. Then a $27 billion IIRC. And many billions in more government contracts. We agree on the need to mobilize that public opinion to try to reduce the impact of the money, but currently it's very effective.
 

The silver lining on this very black cloud is that if a Progressive government is able to take charge in the future, they do not have to shovel sand against the tide of institutional rot. They can rebuild the institutions from scratch.
 
Felis Leo said:
The silver lining on this very black cloud is that if a Progressive government is able to take charge in the future, they do not have to shovel sand against the tide of institutional rot. They can rebuild the institutions from scratch.
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It's a nice idea, but I think it's not that right. Most of the destruction - weather science, medical research, healthcare - just needs to be rebuilt, Progressives don't have a magic improvement to most of it. The Progressive benefit is expanding but that doesn't change the need to rebuild. And we're talking about a very big if here in the face of the fascist oligarch political movement seizing power.
 

People make their choices. People see the results. The political pendulum swings.
 
Peacenik said:
People make their choices. People see the results. The political pendulum swings.
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Somewhat true, when there is functioning democracy. When is that pendulum going to swing because of popular opinion in China or Russia, where we are heading?
 
Craig234 said:
Somewhat true, when there is functioning democracy. When is that pendulum going to swing because of popular opinion in China or Russia, where we are heading?
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We have not had a functioning democracy for 50 years. Still the pendulum swung. People do not like what they are seeing. They are swinging away from maga. The greater the impact of these import taxes the more people are going to distance from maga.
 
Peacenik said:
We have not had a functioning democracy for 50 years.
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It was partially functioning a lot more than it will be now.

Peacenik said:
Still the pendulum swung. People do not like what they are seeing. They are swinging away from maga. The greater the impact of these import taxes the more people are going to distance from maga.
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Republicans understand they can get away with murder after elections, and then launch a propaganda campaign close to an election, and they're planning to rig the elections again. There's good evidence they stole the presidency, the House and the Senate in 2024.

trump is down 10 percent to 37 percent (only down 1 point with Republicans from 90 to 89) - still three percent higher than his first term low, after which he was re-elected (sort of, see above).

We can hope, but it remains to be seen. Opposition can grow, but tyranny also tends to become normalized and entrenched.
 
Republicans would be the last to cave. To win elections and power they have to have the middle. They are losing the middle.
 
Peacenik said:
Republicans would be the last to cave. To win elections and power they have to have the middle. They are losing the middle.
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You're right he's losing the middle, but you seem to think that solves everything. I remember how the middle saved Germany and Russia and many other countries that became authoritarian. The middle disapproved so the authoritarians said they quit. No chance a massive propaganda launch before an election can win back those well informed former trump supporters like it always does.
 

Never said it solves everything. Voicing the brighter side of things often results in naysaying. It is to be expected. People are in a Trump funk
 
Peacenik said:
Never said it solves everything. Voicing the brighter side of things often results in naysaying. It is to be expected. People are in a Trump funk
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That does not describe the exchange at all, though.
 
Peacenik said:
It was not intended to.
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Well, it was implied, that following the exchange, which your post was a response to, was about that exchange. But if not, that's fine. I suspect something you and I recognize is the importance of people pushing for change from the fascism rather than it becoming normalized and entrenched. People need to remember the better alternative.
 
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