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Is Ukraine a Real Country?

XDU

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This might seem like a weird question, but Ukrainian self-determination has dubious historical foundations. If you look into it, you'll find that Ukraine was part of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth before getting partitioned into Imperial Russia before Napoleonic Europe. In contrast, Napoleon himself was the cause for why the Republic of Venice lost its over 1,000 year independence to Austria which received the rest of Ukraine as well. The partition happened in 1793 whereas Venice fell in 1797.

Therefore, is there really any argument for why Ukraine shouldn't be treated as a fake nation and the entire country should be reabsorbed by Russia?
 
Ukraine being absorbed back into Russia makes as much sense as France being absorbed back into Germany. You know the Germans ruled France as recently as the 1940's.
 
lemmiwinx said:
Ukraine being absorbed back into Russia makes as much sense as France being absorbed back into Germany. You know the Germans ruled France as recently as the 1940's.
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France was invaded in advance as an independent country.

Ukraine was part of another country when it was taken over. Russia didn't declare war on Ukraine. It declared on Poland which was basically an anarchic mess from the Liberum Veto which allowed any noble to object to any unified policy. This exposed it to unwieldy foreign influence, and is exactly what happened when the Targowica Confederation opposed a new stronger constitution to replace the Liberum Veto. Catherine the Great declared war on behalf of the Confederation, and Ukraine was awarded to Russia in exchange for its intervention.
 
Fake country as it does not have lineage, comes off as rather elitist.
 
Yes, Ukraine is a real country.

Ukraine - Wikipedia​

Ukraine - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org
Ukraine is a large country in Eastern Europe, lying mostly in the East European Plain. It is the second-largest European country, after Russia. It covers an area of 603,628 square kilometres (233,062 sq mi) and with a coastline of 2,782 kilometres (1,729 mi). It lies between latitudes 44° and 53° N, and
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See more
 
yankintx said:
Fake country as it does not have lineage, comes off as rather elitist.
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Countries are elite. In the hierarchy of jurisdictions, we have boroughs, cities, counties, provinces, and nation-states.

Ukraine seems to be more of a province than a nation-state. It belonged to the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth before getting partitioned out.
 
Ukraine is smaller than Alaska which used to be Russian too.

In fact, Russia acquired Ukraine before it sold Alaska.
 
Is that you Tucker?
 
switt said:
Is that you Tucker?
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I'm just shocked right now.

I was looking up the history of Ukraine to find some justification for its sovereign existence, but there doesn't seem to be one.
 
XDU said:
I'm just shocked right now.

I was looking up the history of Ukraine to find some justification for its sovereign existence, but there doesn't seem to be one.
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We should take half
 
This might seem like a weird question, but colonial United States self-determination has dubious historical foundations. If you look into it, you'll find that the United States was part of the British Commonwealth.

Therefore, is there really any argument for why the United States shouldn't be treated as a fake nation and the entire country should be reabsorbed by the UK?
 
I'm guessing you meant Empire, not Commonwealth. America was never part of the Commonwealth.

Ukraine wasn't conquered as a colony. It was awarded from intervening in a domestic conflict in Poland because of how the Cossacks had previously pledged allegiance to Russia from a previous war almost 150 years prior.
 
So? The United States had way less cause for independence than Ukraine does. If you don't think Ukraine qualifies as a country you should also be asking that not just of the United States, but about half of the other countries on Earth as well.
 

Should America be reabsorbed back into the UK? That only changed between 1776 and 1791, and so it's 2 years more fake than the Ukraine.
 
XDU said:
I'm just shocked right now.

I was looking up the history of Ukraine to find some justification for its sovereign existence, but there doesn't seem to be one.
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I don't remember that the Ukraine has to justify a goddamn thing to you.
 
Nomad4Ever said:
So? The United States had way less cause for independence than Ukraine does. If you don't think Ukraine qualifies as a country you should also be asking that not just of the United States, but about half of the other countries on Earth as well.
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Ukraine asked for protection by the Russians. It was a willing vassal. It wasn't like the Americans who revolted over taxation without representation. If anything, the Cossack thieves of today are opposed to the taxation policy of the Ukrainian government's social welfare programs seeking to align with fellow social democrats in the EU.
 
Hamish Howl said:
Should America be reabsorbed back into the UK? That only changed between 1776 and 1791, and so it's 2 years more fake than the Ukraine.
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Ukraine never revolted as a colony under taxation pressure like the U.S. It was communists who declared independence from the Soviet Union when the coup happened in 1991.
 
Hamish Howl said:
I don't remember that the Ukraine has to justify a goddamn thing to you.
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I don't like the argument I'm making here. If anything, it has me concerned.

The problem is I don't see a valid reason to reject it.
 
Ukraine was given it's independence when the USSR broke up. With the collapse of the Soviet Union in 1991, Ukraine became an independent state, formalised with a referendum in December 1991.
The Russians agreed to this with the stipulation that Ukraine give up its nuclear weapons, they were in possession of 400.
 
Mmm... Ukraine declared independence after the coup failed. The coup was against the New Union Treaty which Ukraine initially supported but lost confidence in after the communist party lost power in the USSR.

That party wished to remain in power, so it took refuge in Ukraine. The Budapest Memorandum happened in 1994 after all of that.
 
XDU said:
Ukraine never revolted as a colony under taxation pressure like the U.S. It was communists who declared independence from the Soviet Union when the coup happened in 1991.
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What possible difference would that make?
 
That was a few years after Russia separated from the Mongol empire.
 
Hamish Howl said:
What possible difference would that make?
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It determines if there's a justification for independence to make history or if independence is just rebelling without a cause to make anarchy.
 
craig said:
That was a few years after Russia separated from the Mongol empire.
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300 years passed since Russia rebelled against the Mongols over not wanting to pay tribute any longer. The Mongols coincidentally were allied to Poland and the Rus were allied to Crimea.
 
XDU said:
300 years passed since Russia rebelled against the Mongols over not wanting to pay tribute any longer. The Mongols coincidentally were allied to Poland and the Rus were allied to Crimea.
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You answered your own question.
 
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