A person's beliefs inform their actions. If they believe that an imaginary friend in the sky is commanding that they strap on a bomb vest and kill the heretics, then the religion that they follow, the beliefs that they hold, are at least partially responsible for the actions that they take.
Of course, a lot of religious people hate that idea because when someone of their own religion goes crazy and does something evil, they don't want anything to stain the "good name" of their own religion. It's base hypocrisy, but we shouldn't be at all surprised.
Well in regards to gaining power and influence, Adolf and L Ron didnt do too badly did they?
That's historically inaccurate
First off, Mohammed was illiterate, he didn't know how to read or write.
Secondly, Islam didn't start in a Christian area.
If you look at Christianity in the 6th century or in the 7th century, it had gone down as far as Ethiopia, but it didn't even enter the arabian peninsula. So the arabian peninsula was completely Christianity-free. Maybe merchants that would travel from Byzantium and ethiopia but the vast majority of people living there had no idea of something called "christian" because most people back then were farmers and farmers don't travel a whole lot. So they didn't know that Christianity existed and those that did, knew very little of it. Which means that to go about saying you're it, you're the final prophet from a christian background meant nothing.
Thirdly, say that what i said earlier was wrong, the reality was that if the arabic peninsula, the knowledge of Christianity was widespread and known, even though it wasn't, among the population, they would have been exposed to Byzantine christianity, which was not ridden with wars or conflicts within it since it was under imperial control and the emperor didn't want trouble from the church. Moreover, the only real rebellion to make the headlines as it were, was the iconoclast rebellion... well, not really a rebellion... but that was the only thing that troubled the bynzatine empire. But that was in the VIIIth century. So long after mohammed.
Finally, the koran was written after mohammed's death. Much like the bible as we know it today was put together in the IVth century in the byzantine empire in Nichaea.
Okay. First off, Exodus 22:19 doesn't say that.
Secondly, where Deuteronomy and Chronicles are concerned:
A) Those apply only to the Jewish people's efforts to police themselves, not other peoples.
B) While I will not defend them, it should be noted that these passages were ultimately superseded by Christ's teachings in the New Testament.
At worst, all your examples demonstrate here is that ancient Judaism was rather draconian when it came to enforcing religious conformity. Christianity, as derived from the New Testament, at least, is not.
Exodus 22:19... sorry... copied the wrong passage reference.. that was 2 Chronicles 15:13..
And that's great you will not defend them. Just proves you pick and choose your beliefs and don't read biblical texts literally. You are one step closer to the truth in believing that biblical texts are a work of fiction.
To the contrary, I do take those passages literally, simply because there is really no other way to take them but "literally." I'm simply saying that they are not terribly relevant.
Christ, a man who may have very well been God on Earth, if you take him at his word, cast them aside, and so too have the last 100 generations of his followers. There's simply no cause to pay the passages in question much mind from a Christian perspective for that exact reason.
Whether the Jews have done so as well, I couldn't say. I'm not terribly familiar with the Talmud, Torah, or any other Jewish works past the Old Testament.
What I can say with regard to Islam, however, is that the exact opposite is the case. The latest, and most relevant, parts of the Quran are those which advocate the most violence and bloodshed.
To my knowledge, no later work has ever changed this either. As a matter of fact, many of them have made it worse.
You seem to think pointing a finger and saying "They did it too!" is an excuse. Its not.
Uh, no.
I'm pointing out that any group of religious ideas can be exploited as a tool to coerce people into radicalism.
But nice irrational knee-jerk reaction you have there.
ANY IDEOLOGY can be exploited by the right ideologue. That would be the most correct statement. See how this works?
Expanding the scope doesn't make my comment incorrect, nor does it invalidate the relevance of pointing out Christianity's past as an example of the point.
Keep attacking that straw man...
I never said Islam started in a predominantly christian area, Im saying Islam had a better logic system that allowed it to flourish. And like christianity, Islam started out as an oral tradition so when the Koran was written is largely immaterial since the core logic was already established.
If only religion held a candle to leftism in the last 100 years, eh? Talk about the horrors of ideology.
And now a person called "US Conservative" devolves a conversation about religion into political bickering. Shocker.
And now a person called "US Conservative" devolves a conversation about religion into political bickering. Shocker.
We were discussing ideological extremists. Black book of communism says 100 million were KILLED last century because of that. Seems pertinent.
On top of that, Islamism consists not just of a religion but also a legal and political code as well.
I was talking religious ideological extremists and that was the context of my comment. Again, your generalizing the context doesn't make my comment inaccurate. You were attacking a straw man, and continue to do so.
No more than Christianity inherently does. There are simply many countries that base their government heavily on the religious ideas. But Islam is practiced in a great many countries that don't have government and legal codes based on the teachings. Simple logic thus dictates that legal and political codes are not a requirement of the religion.
Why do you keep ignoring the violence in Africa? Groups exactly like ISIS who want to implement the exact same kind of society (except Christian instead of Muslim) are doing the exact same thing. The only difference is that it's a lot of little ones instead of one big one. It's been going on, pretty much nonstop, for at least a century. These are the most devout Christian countries in the world, where they take scripture quite literally and follow it as exactly as possible. Just like fundamentalist Muslims do.
I don't understand the pathological hatred some people have for Islam. Is it the cultural rivalry that Europe had with the Middle East for so long? Can't you realize that your religions and the worldviews they promote are almost identical? You only spend a moment trying to deny the violence in India, but we can chalk that up to just plain old ignorance. It's sad that you aren't any better than they are. I wish you were. But the facts show that, in a country where religion is unchecked, Christianity is just as brutal and cruel as Islam and Hinduism are. Judaism probably would be, too, since it preaches the same repressive tenants.
Yeah; the problme with Islam in that respect, is that it is fostered by sectarian governments in the ME. That's how these violent fundamentalist groups effectively get permission to go these rants. We see it in the extreme of ISIS right now. People by and large however; especially the Chrisitan right who see Islam the way Hitler saw the Jews, forget oh so conviently that this country was started as a secular society for just that very reason. That before our country was founded, sectarianism literally ruled through direct and genocidal war, both in Great Britain and the continent from the middle ages up through the 1998 Northern Ireland Peace Accord. So Christians have absolutely no room to talk about fundamentalist Islam.
The problem gets compounded when secular governments, like Assad's and Hussein's are for all intenents and purposes , set up and guided by western secular forces that are seen by the average people as emperialist interloping: think The British Empire, French occupation - Vietnam and Lebanon and Algeria and then of course comes American commercial interests, which the government labels - national interests... When the natives, of course, pitch a bitch about this kind of thing, they are brutally put down, ala the Shah of Iran, Assad and Hussein; ala el Salvadore, Honduras etc etc. I thnk that Ho chi Mihn's success as a nationalist, beating first the French and then of course The American Giants, bolstered these fundamentalists and guess what? it's working for them! It won't last long because of the way that they operate, but the IRA for one, showed them that this terrorist stuff not only sends a message, but can lead to a(Irish) Free State! So why should they listen to US?
Then of course we come to the plantation of the Israeli - sectarian state / zion. That's another mess, that because of our very heavily one sided policies has dug our hole even deeper over there. I truly fear for Israel. We have ourselves to thank for it, so how many more American lives are going to be poured into this BS before we get smart and just walk away?
The issue isn't whether or not every religion has their extremist Pasch, but to the scale and the lengths they will go with to carry out their intolerance. Of course you are going to find crazies in every religion. Look at the Westboro Baptist Church guy after all who goes out to burns Korans and protest Robin Williams funeral. And yes it is true in Africa that people like him can find an audience who will listen, say in Nigera when it comes to LGBT rights. But say what you will about that, we don't have to worry about Nigerian Christians, or Christians in general, bombing the gay pride parade in San Francisco now do we? And God forbid in the event such an attack should occur, you would find unanimous condemnation from Christians around the world should it happened.
The problem with Islam, and why it is a bigger threat and at this moment more violent, is because the same cannot be said about Muslims, whether in part or whole. Even if we're not talking about the tens of thousands that have fought for radical jihad, there are many millions more that either condone, or support such action. Let's just pretend for a moment that only 10-15% (which is the most conservative estimate I've seen) support radical Jihad.... that is still almost 200 million people that don't have a problem blowing you or I up, just because we're not Muslim. This sort of thinking is unique to Islam, and you will not find it in the Christian community, or any other religious ones. Hell, people tell jokes about Christians all the time and know they don't have to worry someone might kill them or their family. We can't say the same thing about Islam can we?
I don't fear that kind of violence for two reasons. First, we don't live in a Christian country. We live in a secular country. Our nation has a secular government, secular values, and most of its people base their ideas on secular reality. Even the people who run around screaming about how Christian (or Muslim, or Jewish) they are, are pretty secular people. Second, the really serious Christians of this world, the ones in Africa and parts of South America, or the oft-cited tiny groups who meet in houses for fear of persecution in China, are completely powerless to hurt me. They would if given the chance, I'm sure. But the reason that violent Islamic groups can enact this kind of violence (which is almost completely NOT directed against Americans at home) is because they also have lots of oil and money. Not because of some kind of difference in the ideology. It's the same ideology. Both religions copied it from Judaism, which started out with a pretty horrible ideology. Hinduism seems to have come up with it on its own.
Let's talk about the ones who condone that you've mentioned. How many Christians in this country condoned the deaths of millions of Iraqis in the last decade? How many condone the deaths of Palestinian children every single day? How many did you condone? Do you even know that you did? You seem completely obvious to even the idea that your side does evil things, let alone recognize when it happens.
If I had several wives, I can imagine I'd be quite chilled.No beer.
No bacon.
No pork chops.
Multiple wives.
Multiple mothers in law.
No Christmas.
Would you be peaceful?
Why should I expand upon something that has been addressed ad nauseam? No need to waste the time posting it. There are better topics to debate and post aboutCan you expand on that and maybe give some examples? Simply stating 'no' based on watching the news is utterly unconvincing.
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