ZapFinch42
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Free will can't exist. If God exists, then He knows all and free will is merely an illusion, as we can't change the outcome. If God doesn't exist, then everything we do is simply a result of the movements of particles and energy in a course determined by the Big Bang.
Please flesh what you are trying to say out a little bit more. How is it that just because a god knows everything past and present that free will does not/cannot exist? I have music recorded by someone independent of any control by me [under their own free will], I can play that music over and over again, I know it exactly, the musicians cannot any longer change it, so will not change no matter if I know it or not.
So, how is it that this knowledge of what went on before and what will go on in the future might keep others from having exercised their own free will? And myself, I can play it or not, as is my choice... and is not a proof that a god made me do it or didn't.
You can play a CD, that's your choice, and God knew you were going to play that CD when he created the universe, it is not possible for you to have done anything that God has not willed to happen at the moment he created everything. God predetermined everything, your choice to play a CD is merely an illusion of choice, because it couldn't have happened any other way.
If I were, for the sake of conversation to have had free choice, and it was not an illusion, but god knew what I would do and yet let me do it, how or why would that ipso facto be required to be god disallowing choice? I know you are saying it IS that way, I just do not know why you are saying it MUST be that way.
The music recorded that I have was made by free choice, it cannot now have happened any other way, having already been done. Just because a god knows what will happen does not necessarily mean that he willed it so. Or if it is necessary, what is your reason behind this being so?
I recently had a discussion with a fellow atheist about Sam Harris' book Free Will and I was taken aback by just how hostile my colleague was to the idea that Free Will might be an illusion. I have come to believe that we do live in a deterministic universe and it seems to me the the benefits of thinking this way far out weigh the feelings of desperation my friend so afraid of.
With this in mind I am curious how others feel about this subject.
I welcome people of all creeds to chime in.
If you are an atheist, is this an idea that you have concerned yourself with? Do you find evidence in support of Free Will?
If you are a believer of some shade, do you feel that the loss of free will threatens your belief system or is there some way to reconcile the two? Remember I am asking a hypothetical here, if you suddenly found out beyond any shadow of a doubt that free will is an illusion would you still maintain your faith? On that note is free will something you take on faith?
For anyone, if society as a whole were to adopt this philosophy what benefits do you think we would enjoy? What negative consequences? (ie how would it impact our daily lives? Our system of laws?)
I am not attempting to start a religious debate here, I hope we can talk about free will on its own terms.
If I were, for the sake of conversation to have had free choice, and it was not an illusion, but god knew what I would do and yet let me do it, how or why would that ipso facto be required to be god disallowing choice? I know you are saying it IS that way, I just do not know why you are saying it MUST be that way.
The music recorded that I have was made by free choice, it cannot now have happened any other way, having already been done. Just because a god knows what will happen does not necessarily mean that he willed it so. Or if it is necessary, what is your reason behind this being so?
It seems that spud is using a very strict theist definition of god. That is to say one who literally controls every aspect of the universe including for the sake of argument what records you play.
In my experience most modern christians do not really view their god that way. This might be the disconnect.
It's not God controlling in the immediate, intimate sense, but rather that everything is the way it is because God chose for it to be that way.
Fee will is like any other sort of "freedom" it has limits.
We are free to make some choices - although even many of those may be influenced by conditioning, upbringing, previous choices etc ....
but there are other things that just happen, and our capacity to make free choices in how we react/respond is even further limited.
part of free will probably requires the individual to know when they really are free to make choices - and not experience too much angst over things that really are outside their control. and for me, God doesn't come into the equation .... but I think I would probably feel much the same whether I was/wasn't a believer.
Because God created everything with full knowledge of what would happen when he did so. Nothing can behave contrary to the way God knew it would when he set the universe in motion. Because God predetermined the outcome of creation, it is impossible for us to make a choice God didn't foresee, thus, we maintain an illusionary perception of choice from our limited perspective, but from God's perspective, He knew we would make that choice and so it couldn't have happened any other way.
If God is omnipotent and omniscient, he dictated everything that ever has been and ever will be.
If this God exists, humans can no more choose their actions than a CD can change the music burnt onto it.
I must ask about those "other things that just happen"
Are those not also just the result of some causal relationship the mechanism of which was separate from yourself?
More pointedly,where does that causality stop, the so called "uncaused cause"
I have also read that book but it just put in formal terms what I'd already argued before I read it. Conscious free will does not exist.I recently had a discussion with a fellow atheist about Sam Harris' book Free Will and I was taken aback by just how hostile my colleague was to the idea that Free Will might be an illusion. I have come to believe that we do live in a deterministic universe and it seems to me the the benefits of thinking this way far out weigh the feelings of desperation my friend so afraid of.
A predictable future and free will are mutually exclusive.That is contradictory. God being omnipotent, he can do anything, including giving man free will.
A predictable future and free will are mutually exclusive.
...if you suddenly found out beyond any shadow of a doubt that free will is an illusion would you still maintain your faith? On that note is free will something you take on faith?
Free will can't exist. If God exists, then He knows all and free will is merely an illusion, as we can't change the outcome. If God doesn't exist, then everything we do is simply a result of the movements of particles and energy in a course determined by the Big Bang.
Because God created everything with full knowledge of what would happen when he did so. Nothing can behave contrary to the way God knew it would when he set the universe in motion. Because God predetermined the outcome of creation, it is impossible for us to make a choice God didn't foresee, thus, we maintain an illusionary perception of choice from our limited perspective, but from God's perspective, He knew we would make that choice and so it couldn't have happened any other way.
Just beacuse you knew what the outcome would be sans any influance by yourself, it does not automatically follow that I didn't choose to stab that guy. Now let's put God back into the equation. Simply because he knows what we'll decide does not mean that we are not deciding.
For this to be true then God delebrately created Morningstar to turn upon Him and become Satan. It was either Christ or Paul who stated that a house divided against itself cannot stand. For that matter, there would be no point for Christ to come save us if we couldn't be saved since we'd have no choice in being saved or not.
Precisely. Unless God isn't omnipotent, he knew full well that Morningstar would turn, that Jesus would get nailed to a cross, and he knows precisely who will and will not accept Christ and be saved. And he set the events in motion for these to happen knowing the outcome.
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