NGNM85
DP Veteran
- Joined
- May 3, 2011
- Messages
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- Socialist
Legally it may not be murder, but morally it is....
I believe that when it comes to abortion that my morals need to be reflected in the laws to protect the lives of the unborn. I don't think someone's personal morals should ever justify the killing of another human life. It's no different when a man in his own moral code believes that it's ok to kill another person for sleeping with his wife or for offending him.
Legal abortion is not restricted to just viability, and even if a fetus isn't viable I do not believe that justified killing it. We know that the fetus will become a viable human being in time. I think this would be similar to pulling the plug on someone who is kept alive via a life support system when we know that within a few weeks that the person on life support will make a full recovery.
Legally it may not be murder, but morally it is.
Again, you have to provide a cogent scientific definition of the sufficient conditions for a human being that would justify this contention. You can try, by all means, best of luck, but I'll tell you right now, it's impossible.
You should be aware that 86% of abortions are performed before the fetal stage.
The comparison with the coma is completely inaccurate. The coma guy, especially if it's just a temporary situation, he isn't permenently in a vegetative state, is still a living human being, he's just temporarily out of touch. The human embryo, in most cases, even into the fetal stage, still doesn't yet meet the sufficient conditions of a human being, and never has. Admittedly, eventually, the fetus does meet these conditions. However, fetuses at this late stage are almost never aborted without a medical necessity. It's less than 4%. Though, if it makes you feel any better, regarding that less-than-4%, I would say that the fetus should simply be removed as it has an upwards of 90% chance of survival on it's own, anyhow.
My understanding is that in some states (it may be all, I don't know), if you kill a pregnant woman and the baby dies as well - you are hit with two counts of murder/manslaughter or whatever the actual charge. So I guess in some criminal law your position would be denied
Do you believe that one group of people should be able to force their morality on another group of people?
Don't you? I bet your position on cockfighting is more restrictive than mine.
I'm a molecular biologist. Scientifically, the zygote has a unique human genome that does not belong to the mother. It's not part of the mothers body and though not viable outside of the womb, is an individual human life that is not the life of the mother. The zygote, fetus, and adult are all living human organisms, the only difference is their stages of life and development. You argue as if the zygote/fetus isn't a human life. Scientifically it is a human life. Ethically abortion is the killing of an individual human life and should not be tolerated under the law.Again, you have to provide a cogent scientific definition of the sufficient conditions for a human being that would justify this contention. You can try, by all means, best of luck, but I'll tell you right now, it's impossible.
You should be aware that 86% of abortions are performed before the fetal stage.
The comparison with the coma is completely inaccurate. The coma guy, especially if it's just a temporary situation, he isn't permenently in a vegetative state, is still a living human being, he's just temporarily out of touch. The human embryo, in most cases, even into the fetal stage, still doesn't yet meet the sufficient conditions of a human being, and never has. Admittedly, eventually, the fetus does meet these conditions. However, fetuses at this late stage are almost never aborted without a medical necessity. It's less than 4%. Though, if it makes you feel any better, regarding that less-than-4%, I would say that the fetus should simply be removed as it has an upwards of 90% chance of survival on it's own, anyhow.
A person who is dependent upon medication to survive is also a clump of unviable cells. I support the rights of mothers, but that ends when they want their rights to extend upon the lives of others and the choice to electively end another human life. I believe human life is equal. The fetus is a human life just like the mothers. I don't think she should have special rights that legally extend upon another human life and gives her the power to electively chose whether it lives or dies. It's not that I think the fetus is more important than the mother, it's that I believe the mothers rights shouldn't infringe upon the life of another human.Like I said we will always disagree because I see no logic to consider unvailble cells life or getting rid of them murder or killing.
and I certainly will never see logic in making those unvailble cells more important than the viable mother or ever FORCING her to carry a child that to me never adds up.
Your morals are represented because YOU arent forced to have an abortion, my morals are also represented because you dont get to force yours on me.
Right now unfortunatley for you IMO the law is perfect and very american.
YOU dont have to have an abortion if you dont want to and others can because they arent forced to live by YOUR morals.
Do you believe that one group of people should be able to force their morality on another group of people?
A person who is dependent upon medication to survive is also a clump of unviable cells. I support the rights of mothers, but that ends when they want their rights to extend upon the lives of others and the choice to electively end another human life. I believe human life is equal. The fetus is a human life just like the mothers. I don't think she should have special rights that legally extend upon another human life and gives her the power to electively chose whether it lives or dies. It's not that I think the fetus is more important than the mother, it's that I believe the mothers rights shouldn't infringe upon the life of another human.
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"A person who is dependent upon medication to survive is also a clump of nonviable cells"
are you talking a person who is a vegetable and also needs machines to servive? then yes
if you are talking about a conscious person who just needs meds then no
also this is where we will never agree those "lives" will NEVER be equal IMO because one is viable and one is not. One NEEDS the other to even get viable and one doesnt, One live will be held hostage for at least 9 months and one will not. and no im not saying being pregnant is being a hostage IF you want it but if you dont it is force and is being held hostage.
I did refer to my daughter in the last week in utero as "the little parasite". Yes, end-term pregnancy is a great deal like being held hostage, even if one wants to be a mom with every fiber of her being.
Would you say your emotions behind the comment reflected that meaning...or perhaps was it just that you were exhausted with the pregnancy and ready for it to be over?
Mac, I know you've lived with a nine-month pregnant female. What do YOU think.
That's why I asked.....
I'm living with a 5 month pregnant woman right now. Somebody told me it gets better every time. I'm here to tell you that's a bald faced lie.
I'm a molecular biologist. Scientifically, the zygote has a unique human genome that does not belong to the mother. It's not part of the mothers body and though not viable outside of the womb, is an individual human life that is not the life of the mother. The zygote, fetus, and adult are all living human organisms, the only difference is their stages of life and development. You argue as if the zygote/fetus isn't a human life. Scientifically it is a human life. Ethically abortion is the killing of an individual human life and should not be tolerated under the law.
A person who is dependent upon medication to survive is also a clump of unviable cells. I support the rights of mothers, but that ends when they want their rights to extend upon the lives of others and the choice to electively end another human life. I believe human life is equal. The fetus is a human life just like the mothers. I don't think she should have special rights that legally extend upon another human life and gives her the power to electively chose whether it lives or dies. It's not that I think the fetus is more important than the mother, it's that I believe the mothers rights shouldn't infringe upon the life of another human.
Absolutely, you do too. The laws are essentially forcing morality upon everyone who is under them.
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