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Iraq War Timeline: Lie by Lie

No it doesn't. If two or more nations have temporarily settled their hostilities on a set of conditions then a violation of those conditions justifies renewed hostilities. I mean, this is a no-brainer. There's no need to caricature what the issues were regarding the US and Iraq down to a disagreement over paper.

Did the US and Iraq sign a ceasefire agreement?

Fair enough. But please don't pretend that your opinion is at all authoritative on this quetion. And on this question the responsibile authorities believed that Iraq constituted a threat warranting removing that regime from power. I found the case for war compelling and still do no matter the nonsense of neocons, conspiracies, Israel, etc.

I never claimed it was authoritative. Mine is just as authoritative as yours.

That's twice. Now provide some source for this, please. Because as I already noted in this thread this week, Blix in both January and February 2003 reported to the UNSC that Iraq had failed to account for thousands of chemical weapons and thousands of tons of weaponozed biological agents.

There is no way then that within a few months of the March invasion that the UN inspections regime was ready to conclude that all wmds had been destroyed and all wmd programs dismantled. No way whatsoever.

So where is your evidence? I have presented mine.

Blix 7 Mar 03:

How much time would it take to resolve the key remaining disarmament tasks? While cooperation can -- cooperation can and is to be immediate, disarmament, and at any rate verification of it, cannot be instant. Even with a proactive Iraqi attitude induced by continued outside pressure, it will still take some time to verify sites and items, analyze documents, interview relevant persons and draw conclusions. It will not take years, nor weeks, but months.

CNN.com - Transcript of Blix's U.N. presentation - Mar. 7, 2003


Huh? I can sense that was a slam of Bush but, really, it's rather pathetically
weak.

Your opinion. Mirrors closely my opinion of many of your arguments.
 
Maybe and maybe not. But it is far worse to start a war that is not necessary.

Everyone can agree that unnecessary war is a horror which must be avoided at all costs.

That is the point of my posts here. The war was necessary to prevent a larger, more destructive war.
 
Therein lies the rub doesn't it? It's far easier for you to sit here, now, after the fact and show all the reasons why we shouldn't have gone to war... "saddam's WMD were not as believed etc.. etc.." then to be the one that has to decide, and suffer the fate of history, conscience and failing those that trusted you if you choose NOT to go to war, and be wrong.

That's the part none of you are willing to concede. YES, the WMD program was not as anticipated, YES there were mistakes made after we beat the Iraqi government...

But you all attribute some faulty "well we went to war to satisfy a neo-con oil binging crusade!"

Seriously? You folks SERIOUSLY believe that was the case, and not more noble reasons?

Boggles the mind.

It's not a judgment after the fact. It's a judgement based on what we know now that they knew then. They knew that after months of blind inspections at hundreds of sites, the UN inspectors were not finding the WMD that our sources claimed where there. That was a red flag that our sources should be questioned.

They knew if Iraq had WMD, it had had WMD for almost 20 years and there was no evidence it had ever supplied it to terrorists. They knew that Hussein's goal was to stay in power and that he would not likely do something that would have so clearly provided a legitimate excuse to take him out.

The neocon goal of projection of US power in a world policeman role generally, and forceable removal of Hussein from Iraq more specifically, is well documented in neocon think tank and publications like the PNAC and Weekly Standard well before the Iraq war and even 9/11.

Whether the reasons they set forth for forceable removal of Hussein from Government is noble is a matter of opinion. I certainly had no interest in Hussein staying in power. On the other hand, to invade and occupy another nation in the absense of clear justication for it is not noble, IMO.
 
Everyone can agree that unnecessary war is a horror which must be avoided at all costs.

That is the point of my posts here. The war was necessary to prevent a larger, more destructive war.

For reasons repetitively posted, I disagree with your opinion or that you have provided evidence that substantiates it. I also disagree that Iraq was necessary.

I further disagree with the contention that it was good policy for the US preemptively and pretextually invading Iraq for the purpose of preventing Israel from being involved in a war.
 
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How many of them were started by Israel?

I think two, '56 and '67 were started by strikes by Israel, though there is debate and argument that war would have happened anyway. The other wars were initiated by Muslim states. That is my understanding.

What difference does it make?
 
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Therein lies the rub doesn't it? It's far easier for you to sit here, now, after the fact and show all the reasons why we shouldn't have gone to war... "saddam's WMD were not as believed etc.. etc.." then to be the one that has to decide, and suffer the fate of history, conscience and failing those that trusted you if you choose NOT to go to war, and be wrong.

That's the part none of you are willing to concede. YES, the WMD program was not as anticipated, YES there were mistakes made after we beat the Iraqi government...

But you all attribute some faulty "well we went to war to satisfy a neo-con oil binging crusade!"

Seriously? You folks SERIOUSLY believe that was the case, and not more noble reasons?

Boggles the mind.

Noble reasons? Are you serious? :roll:

He wanted to invade Iraq before he took office! You know, BEFORE 9/11 happened! How is THAT "noble"?

As your ilk loves to say, "Get your head out of your ass"! :roll:
 
Noble reasons? Are you serious? :roll:

He wanted to invade Iraq before he took office! You know, BEFORE 9/11 happened! How is THAT "noble"?

As your ilk loves to say, "Get your head out of your ass"! :roll:

Look, more tin foil from ADK. Anyone shocked?

Not me.
 
Did the US and Iraq sign a ceasefire agreement?

Uh, yes. UN resolution 687. My goodness, are you discussing this issue without even knowing simple and basic facts about the aftermath of the first Gulf War?

I never claimed it was authoritative. Mine is just as authoritative as yours.

I am not presenting my opinion as an authority. You do. You simply, repetitively pronounce your opinion that the war was unjust and unnecessary and that Iraq did not constitute a threat. Meanwhile, I present the judgment of the intelligence analysts and elected officials who have been reviewing data for more than a decade judging otherwise.

Blix 7 Mar 03:

How much time would it take to resolve the key remaining disarmament tasks? While cooperation can -- cooperation can and is to be immediate, disarmament, and at any rate verification of it, cannot be instant. Even with a proactive Iraqi attitude induced by continued outside pressure, it will still take some time to verify sites and items, analyze documents, interview relevant persons and draw conclusions. It will not take years, nor weeks, but months.

CNN.com - Transcript of Blix's U.N. presentation - Mar. 7, 2003

That's nice speculation and all, however, given that Blix conditionalized such speculation on an induced "proactive Iraqi attitude" it's clear that such an attitude was not yet present on the part of Iraqi's. If such an attitude existed then Blix would have not have preceded his comments with, "Even with" as that clearly denotes the need to witness such an attitude.

My point remains that your conclusion that Blix was ready to determine within months that all wmds had been destroyed and that all wmd programs had been dismantled is false as demonstrated by Blix's own words.
 
Look, more tin foil from ADK. Anyone shocked?

Not me.

I wouldn't call it tin foilery.

I'll concede that Bush and Cheney wanted to see Hussein toppled even before taking office.

I just don't see the significance of this. That they did, as did most of the elected leadership in this country, doesn't change the fact that Hussein was a brutal dictator who possessed wmds, supported terrorism, committed gorss human rights violations, and violated the ceasefire agreement that Iraq agreed to to end the first GW. Those facts form a legitimate justification to use military force to effect regime change.

That Bush and Cheney came into office wanting to see Hussein removed ain't surprising nor is it relevant. That case for war presented by the administration was reasonable and justified.
 
Uh, yes. UN resolution 687. My goodness, are you discussing this issue without even knowing simple and basic facts about the aftermath of the first Gulf War?

That's a UN resolution. Not a ceasefire agreement between the US and Iraq. Try again.

I am not presenting my opinion as an authority. You do. You simply, repetitively pronounce your opinion that the war was unjust and unnecessary and that Iraq did not constitute a threat. Meanwhile, I present the judgment of the intelligence analysts and elected officials who have been reviewing data for more than a decade judging otherwise.

Oh for goodness sake. It's obvious my opinion. And many others. I've never claimed it was some official authoritarian determination.

For other person who could possibly similarly confused, for the record, I make statements and opinions on my own behalf and do not represent some official or authoritarian entity. My statements such as

If Iraq had had WMDs they had had them for 20 years and never supplied them to terrorists. Iraq was no more an urgent threat in Mar 2003 than it was in the previous 20 years.

Iraq was no urgent threat to the US justifying invasion and occupation. The urgent threat was a pretext fabricated by the neocons to generate support for their predisposed plan to assert US control in the ME.


constitute my opinions, based on facts and arguments as I have presented.

That's nice speculation and all, however, given that Blix conditionalized such speculation on an induced "proactive Iraqi attitude" it's clear that such an attitude was not yet present on the part of Iraqi's. If such an attitude existed then Blix would have not have preceded his comments with, "Even with" as that clearly denotes the need to witness such an attitude.

It was the assessment of the lead UN inspector. In that same report he commented on how the Iraqs were being very cooperative.

At worst, Blix's assessment might have been wrong, and after a few months he'd report that the Iraqis had stopped cooperating, in which case there would have been more justification for some military action, and quite possibly the UN would have thought so as well.

Given that if Iraq had possession of WMD, they'd had them for 20 years, waiting a few months to make this determination, as well as re-assessing intellegence, would have been the prudent thing to do.

But inconsistent with the neocons predisposed goal of removing Hussein by force, as stated in places like the Downing Street Memo and the Project for a New American Century, in which Cheney, Rumsfeld, Wolfawitz and others in the Bush administration where founding supporters.

But that is my opinion and does not represent an authoritarian conclusion by some official body.

My point remains that your conclusion that Blix was ready to determine within months that all wmds had been destroyed and that all wmd programs had been dismantled is false as demonstrated by Blix's own words.

Disagree, as demonstrated by Blix's own words. He clearly indicated that it was possible for him to complete his task within months. Others can read them and determine for themselves.
 
That's a UN resolution. Not a ceasefire agreement between the US and Iraq. Try again.

You didn't read it, did you?

That resolution established the terms of the ceasefire. I guess you're dismissing it as not constituting a ceasefire because it's in the form of a UN resolution? That's dumb.

I gave you the resolution. All you had to do was Google it and you would have found the resolution. Contained in the resolution is the following:
Conscious of the need to take the following measures acting under Chapter VII of the Charter,

1. Affirms all thirteen resolutions noted above, except as expressly changed below to achieve the goals of this resolution, including a formal cease-fire;


This is the resolution adopted by the Security Council, hence it's Chapter 7 designation, of which the US is a member and under which Iraq was obligated to satisfy.

So, not only are you ignorant of the basic facts in this discussion, but when presented such facts you continue to ignore them...how do you account for that?

Oh for goodness sake. It's obvious my opinion. And many others. I've never claimed it was some official authoritarian determination.

I know it's your opinion. I am telling you that it lacks authority. Hence, it's not very credible.

For other person who could possibly similarly confused, for the record, I make statements and opinions on my own behalf and do not represent some official or authoritarian entity. My statements such as

If Iraq had had WMDs they had had them for 20 years and never supplied them to terrorists. Iraq was no more an urgent threat in Mar 2003 than it was in the previous 20 years.

Iraq was no urgent threat to the US justifying invasion and occupation. The urgent threat was a pretext fabricated by the neocons to generate support for their predisposed plan to assert US control in the ME.


constitute my opinions, based on facts and arguments as I have presented.

No one says they are not your opinions or that you're attempting to pass them off as representative of anyone else's. I merely pointed out that your opinion lacks authority, i.e., credibility.

It was the assessment of the lead UN inspector. In that same report he commented on how the Iraqs were being very cooperative.

Very cooperative? Nowhere does Blix describe it as such. In fact, he describes some improved cooperation while also citing lack of cooperation.

The fact of the matter, though, is that Blix didn't say in that report, as you contend that he was ready within months to conclude that Iraq had completely disarmed. He was speculating that with a not-yet adopted Iraqi positive attitude that such might be determinable within months.

At worst, Blix's assessment might have been wrong, and after a few months he'd report that the Iraqis had stopped cooperating, in which case there would have been more justification for some military action, and quite possibly the UN would have thought so as well.

Irrelevant. Your point was that Blix was ready to make such a determination of complete disarmament within months and you cited the 2003 March report as evidence of this. That report doesn't substantiate your assertion as I clearly showed above.

Given that if Iraq had possession of WMD, they'd had them for 20 years, waiting a few months to make this determination, as well as re-assessing intellegence, would have been the prudent thing to do.

We had been waiting 10+ years, not a few months.

But inconsistent with the neocons predisposed goal of removing Hussein by force, as stated in places like the Downing Street Memo and the Project for a New American Century, in which Cheney, Rumsfeld, Wolfawitz and others in the Bush administration where founding supporters.

Now, in addition, to abusing the phrase, "neocon" you're abusing governmental documents, too. The Downing Street Memo didn't reveal a neocon goal of removing Hussein. It reflected, as I have noted here before, a fourth-hand account of a discussion of Bush administration principals and British government officials. That memo has been used to suggest that Bush was attempting to manipulate intelligence because the fourth-hand account used the word "fix" to describe the process of gathering intelligence. Now, to argue that you have ignore the British use of the word, "fix" as well as ignore the SSCI's conclusion that no intelligence had been manipulated. And why would it need to be manipulated given that the intelligence estimates given to Bush hardly varied from those issued to the Clinton administration?

Disagree, as demonstrated by Blix's own words. He clearly indicated that it was possible for him to complete his task within months. Others can read them and determine for themselves.

It was only possible if, as Blix also stated, that the Iraqis adopted a positive attitude which had Iraq adopted such an attitude Blix would have no reason to qualify his speculation about completing the inspections as he did in that report.
 
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You didn't read it, did you?

That resolution established the terms of the ceasefire. I guess you're dismissing it as not constituting a ceasefire because it's in the form of a UN resolution? That's dumb.

I gave you the resolution. All you had to do was Google it and you would have found the resolution. Contained in the resolution is the following:
Conscious of the need to take the following measures acting under Chapter VII of the Charter,

1. Affirms all thirteen resolutions noted above, except as expressly changed below to achieve the goals of this resolution, including a formal cease-fire;


This is the resolution adopted by the Security Council, hence it's Chapter 7 designation, of which the US is a member and under which Iraq was obligated to satisfy.

So, not only are you ignorant of the basic facts in this discussion, but when presented such facts you continue to ignore them...how do you account for that?

I clearly read much better than you. I never said it wasn't a cease fire. It's a UN resolution. It's not between the US and Iraq, contrary to your assertion that there was one, which you still never showed.

There was no cease fire agreement between the US and Iraq. The US therefore did not have unilateral authority to attack Iraq for an asserted violation of a ceasefire it had with the UN.

I know it's your opinion. I am telling you that it lacks authority. Hence, it's not very credible.

No one says they are not your opinions or that you're attempting to pass them off as representative of anyone else's. I merely pointed out that your opinion lacks authority, i.e., credibility.

I disagree with your opinion. Others can decide for themselves.

Very cooperative? Nowhere does Blix describe it as such. In fact, he describes some improved cooperation while also citing lack of cooperation.

Initial difficulties raised by the Iraqi side about helicopters and aerial surveillance planes operating in the "no-fly" zones were overcome.

This is not to say that the operation of inspections is free from frictions, but at this juncture we are able to perform professional, no-notice inspections all over Iraq and to increase aerial surveillance.

One can hardly avoid the impression that after a period of somewhat reluctant cooperation, there's been an acceleration of initiatives from the Iraqi side since the end of January.

It is obvious that while the numerous initiatives which are now taken by the Iraqi side with a view to resolving some longstanding, open disarmament issues can be seen as active or even proactive.

...

How much time would it take to resolve the key remaining disarmament tasks? While cooperation can -- cooperation can and is to be immediate, disarmament, and at any rate verification of it, cannot be instant. Even with a proactive Iraqi attitude induced by continued outside pressure, it will still take some time to verify sites and items, analyze documents, interview relevant persons and draw conclusions. It will not take years, nor weeks, but months.

Blix did not use the words "very cooperative", I agree.

He did however, note that Iraqi was active and even proactive with their cooperation, and in his concluding statement, states that with a proactive Iraqi attitude the tasks could be completed in months.

Nowhere in his report does he suggest that he cannot complete his tasks or that it is unlikely he can complete his task because of Iraqi interference or non-cooperation.


The fact of the matter, though, is that Blix didn't say in that report, as you contend that he was ready within months to conclude that Iraq had completely disarmed. He was speculating that with a not-yet adopted Iraqi positive attitude that such might be determinable within months.

I don't contend that, Blix did.

Irrelevant. Your point was that Blix was ready to make such a determination of complete disarmament within months and you cited the 2003 March report as evidence of this. That report doesn't substantiate your assertion as I clearly showed above.

"How much time would it take to resolve the key remaining disarmament tasks? ... It will not take years, nor weeks, but months."

Substantiates my assertion pretty plainly.

We had been waiting 10+ years, not a few months.

Irrelevant. If war wasn't necessary it wasn't necessary.

Now, in addition, to abusing the phrase, "neocon" you're abusing governmental documents, too. The Downing Street Memo didn't reveal a neocon goal of removing Hussein. It reflected, as I have noted here before, a fourth-hand account of a discussion of Bush administration principals and British government officials. That memo has been used to suggest that Bush was attempting to manipulate intelligence because the fourth-hand account used the word "fix" to describe the process of gathering intelligence. Now, to argue that you have ignore the British use of the word, "fix" as well as ignore the SSCI's conclusion that no intelligence had been manipulated. And why would it need to be manipulated given that the intelligence estimates given to Bush hardly varied from those issued to the Clinton administration?

The DSM reflected a predisposition to invade Iraq by the Bush administration, which was dominated by neocons.

[/quote]
It was only possible if, as Blix also stated, that the Iraqis adopted a positive attitude which had Iraq adopted such an attitude Blix would have no reason to qualify his speculation about completing the inspections as he did in that report.[/QUOTE]

Which he reported, as I quoted above, they were exhibiting.
 
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