Iraq insurgents take Saddam's home town in lightning advance [W:246, 565, 656]

AJiveMan · Jun 14, 2014

Re: Iraq insurgents take Saddam's home town in lightning advance

Jack Hays said:
We were (and are) allies of the post-Saddam government from the time it was established. Our political leverage and intelligence influence were quite powerful when we still had a military presence in country.eace

But the Iraqis hated the occupation so badly, they killed and injured troops with IEDs. Maybe we were friendly to a government the US installed, but we sure weren't favorites to Iraqi citizens. The friendliness, or allied government cooperation was out of necessity, and no more than that convenience.

The US should stop going around the world overthrowing countries and installing regimes, as our track record in doing that is a miserable failure.

Jack Hays · Jun 14, 2014

Re: Iraq insurgents take Saddam's home town in lightning advance

AJiveMan said:
But the Iraqis hated the occupation so badly, they killed and injured troops with IEDs. Maybe we were friendly to a government the US installed, but we sure weren't favorites to Iraqi citizens. The friendliness, or allied government cooperation was out of necessity, and no more than that convenience.

The US should stop going around the world overthrowing countries and installing regimes, as our track record in doing that is a miserable failure.

Having actually been to Iraq, I can tell you that Iraqis did not hate the occupation.eace

Muhammed · Jun 14, 2014

Re: Iraq insurgents take Saddam's home town in lightning advance

dad2three2001 said:
lol, Sure, and the TWO Senate reports?

United States support for Iraq during the Iran–Iraq War, against post-revolutionary Iran, included several billion dollars' worth of economic aid, the sale of dual-use technology, non-U.S. origin weaponry, military intelligence, Special Operations training, and direct involvement in warfare against Iran.

On June 9, 1992, Ted Koppel reported on ABC's Nightline,that the "Reagan/Bush administrations permitted—and frequently encouraged—the flow of money, agricultural credits, dual-use technology, chemicals, and weapons to Iraq."

United States support for Iraq during the Iran

OH I GET IT,ANOTHER CONservative who lives in a different 'reality'

The Senate committee's reports on 'US Chemical and Biological Warfare-Related Dual-Use Exports to Iraq', undertaken in 1992 in the wake of the Gulf war, give the date and destination of all US exports. The reports show, for example, that on May 2, 1986, two batches of bacillus anthracis -- the micro-organism that causes anthrax -- were shipped to the Iraqi Ministry of Higher Education, along with two batches of the bacterium clostridium botulinum, the agent that causes deadly botulism poisoning.

One batch each of salmonella and E coli were shipped to the Iraqi State Company for Drug Industries on August 31, 1987. Other shipments went from the US to the Iraq Atomic Energy Commission on July 11, 1988; the Department of Biology at the University of Basrah in November 1989; the Department of Microbiology at Baghdad University in June 1985; the Ministry of Health in April 1985 and Officers' City, a military complex in Baghdad, in March and April 1986.

The Senate report also makes clear that: 'The United States provided the government of Iraq with 'dual use' licensed materials which assisted in the development of Iraqi chemical, biological and missile-system programs

How Did Iraq Get Its Weapons? We Sold Them

:roll:

None of that is WMD.

Checkerboard Strangler · Jun 14, 2014

Re: Iraq insurgents take Saddam's home town in lightning advance

ChrisL said:
Not if we just took over the entire country. We could control the government, the oil. We'll just call them America Junior. :mrgreen:

And you don't think the 3-something trillion we already spent was an attempt to do just that?

And you think it is possible to take a seventh century fundamentalist Islamic republic, which is *nominally* controlled by Iran and just drop in a few strip malls and suddenly everyone will be running around flashing peace signs and making duck face selfies and saying "America yes Number One, blue jeans, hamburger Big Mac Justin Bieber okay!" ???

My question for you, and anyone who believes this is possible:
On what planet do you spend the majority of your free time?

Jack Hays · Jun 14, 2014

Re: Iraq insurgents take Saddam's home town in lightning advance

Checkerboard Strangler said:
And you don't think the 3-something trillion we already spent was an attempt to do just that?

And you think it is possible to take a seventh century fundamentalist Islamic republic, which is *nominally* controlled by Iran and just drop in a few strip malls and suddenly everyone will be running around flashing peace signs and making duck face selfies and saying "America yes Number One, blue jeans, hamburger Big Mac Justin Bieber okay!" ???

My question for you, and anyone who believes this is possible:
On what planet do you spend the majority of your free time? View attachment 67168148

We did not go to Iraq for the oil. If we had wanted it we certainly could have taken it.eace

AJiveMan · Jun 14, 2014

Re: Iraq insurgents take Saddam's home town in lightning advance

Jack Hays said:
Having actually been to Iraq, I can tell you that Iraqis did not hate the occupation.eace

Really, how many Iraqis did you survey.

AJiveMan · Jun 14, 2014

Definition of a WMD

A "weapon of mass destruction" (WMD or WoMD) is a nuclear, radiological, biological, chemical or other weapon that can kill and bring significant harm to a large number of humans

notquiteright · Jun 14, 2014

Re: Iraq insurgents take Saddam's home town in lightning advance

Conservative said:
Like it or not, we went into Iraq, over 4000 American troops were killed, the surge won the war, and Obama has lost the peace. So much blood and treasure lost thanks to the incompetence of this Administration and our Community Agitator President. No leadership skills at all. The Status of Forces Agreement was negotiated by Bush and squandered by Obama. On behalf of the three family members that I had who served in Iraq and the 4000+ Americans who died there let me express my disgust for this President, his Administration, and supporters. You people don't have a clue and we are in more danger today than when Obama took office.

Like it or not, we went into Iraq, over 4,000 Americans died, the surge FINALLY brought the numbers up in country to the PROFESSIONAL military men's estimate YEARS after they had any chance of 'winning'. Huge bribes were paid to Sunni leaders and a truce was haltingly observed. BushII then announced the draw down, the year we would leave, and then scurried out the back door leaving it to others to finish the clean-up. :doh

The Iraqi government didn't want to extend the SoFA and that was that.

Now when it comes to speaking for vets, I speak for myself and wife, coz we R Juan.... no need to second party that, I did my time in the slime. :2wave:

Allow me to express my disgust at those who stayed behind, but wish to speak on behalf of those who did go into the **** (my wife is a vet and she DAMN sure doesn't try that crap)

BushII didn't win a damn thing. What increase of danger there is is a DIRECT result of the Bush hubris before during and after the Invasion. Saddam was a baaaaad man, but you can't swing a dead cat around that part of the world and not hit a baaaad man (some, our dear friends and allies) :shock:

But BushII DAMN sure destabilized the region with ZERO plan to fix it.

AMERICA has ZERO desire to 'go back in'. Iraq is as much a nation as Yugoslavia was. Our dear friends and allies, the Saudis, DAMN sure should have done far more to stabilize the Sunni side of the violence. Where are the Kurds in all of this?????

When BushII decided to hit Iraq with 'Shock and Awe' it was only a matter of time before we would feel shock and awwwww.... :3oops:

rocket88 · Jun 14, 2014

Re: Iraq insurgents take Saddam's home town in lightning advance

Jack Hays said:
That only goes so far. Outreach to the Sunnis was the key, and that's why Maliki needed us. GWB won a victory. BHO has thrown it away.eace

Maliki was unwilling to have Sunnis in the government, because he's taking some of his cues from Iran. That's why the current situation is happening. Of course, Iran's influence bound to increase. A Sunni leader was deposed and replaced with a democracy in a majority Shiite country. It doesn't take a genius to see that it was inevitable. I guess if you call that a victory, then Bush did win. Personally, I don't call making Iran more influential a victory.

Basically, how many more American lives are you willing to sacrifice for a place that either can't or won't overcome sectarianism?

notquiteright · Jun 14, 2014

Re: Iraq insurgents take Saddam's home town in lightning advance

Jack Hays said:
Having actually been to Iraq, I can tell you that Iraqis did not hate the occupation.

So how tasty were the candies and how sweet the flowers they threw at you? I know a bunch of guys who went out and about on patrol, they don't have the same impression you have. So what all did you do over there? How long, and how many times did you mingle in the marketplaces across Iraq? You go out on those patrols to the remote villages and such on a day to day basis for a year????

I went to Austria once while stationed in the FRG, can't say I know what Austrians think of Americans past a few who made there livelihood on the tourist trade.... eace

rocket88 · Jun 14, 2014

Re: Iraq insurgents take Saddam's home town in lightning advance

APACHERAT said:
What is this, no "You're making **** up" ? :lamo

Iraq crisis: is ISIS part of al-Qaeda?

How Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi challenged Ayman al-Zawahiri and, under his leadership, ISIS became a separate al-Qaeda faction

>" The sudden rise of ISIS – the Islamic State of Iraq and al-Sham – is the result of a crisis in the worldwide jihadist movement that has set the two most powerful heirs to the mantle of Osama bin Laden at loggerheads and led to the group's formal split from al-Qaeda..."<

Continue -> Iraq crisis: is ISIS part of al-Qaeda? - Telegraph

Al Qaeda Splinter Group ISIS Marches Towards Iraq's Biggest Oil Refinery

The Economist explains: What ISIS, an al-Qaeda affiliate in Syria, really wants | The Economist

They're splintered off from alQaeda, but aren't part of the organization. It's right in your quote. "Led to the group's formal split from al-Qaeda "

I notice you didn't answer the direct question. How many more American lives do we sacrifice for a place that is unwilling or unable to overcome sectarianism?

Conservative · Jun 14, 2014

Re: Iraq insurgents take Saddam's home town in lightning advance

Amadeus said:
I think you'll like this thread:

http://www.debatepolitics.com/middle-east/196669-fareed-zakaria-iraqs-failure.html

That is an opinion and Zakaria is entitled to it, the real issue however is the lack of respect for Obama and that is why the status of forces agreement was not properly negotiated. Obama had his opinion on Iraq and did nothing to work with the govt. of Iraq to maintain the gains generated and that is the issue. You want to buy what Zakaria says and ignore the reality on the ground.

Conservative · Jun 14, 2014

Re: Iraq insurgents take Saddam's home town in lightning advance

iguanaman said:
On behalf of all the military families who's children will not die or be maimed in another useless conflict in Iraq I want to express my admiration for this President.

Of course you do and of course that brings those soldiers back, doesn't it? That region is vital to this country and you your short term ideology is the dangerous one. You didn't like the Iraq War but the real tribute to those who die would have been a stable Iraq and Obama blew it

rocket88 · Jun 14, 2014

Re: Iraq insurgents take Saddam's home town in lightning advance

Conservative said:
That is an opinion and Zakaria is entitled to it, the real issue however is the lack of respect for Obama and that is why the status of forces agreement was not properly negotiated. Obama had his opinion on Iraq and did nothing to work with the govt. of Iraq to maintain the gains generated and that is the issue. You want to buy what Zakaria says and ignore the reality on the ground.

So you're willing to have more Americans die to increase Iran's influence.

Ronald Reagan must be so proud....

Conservative · Jun 14, 2014

Re: Iraq insurgents take Saddam's home town in lightning advance

AJiveMan said:
Really, how many Iraqis did you survey.

How many did you survey? When were you in Iraq? I had three family members there saying the same thing. It was the insurgents that didn't like the American troops not the majority of the Iraqi people and especially the kids.

Checkerboard Strangler · Jun 14, 2014

cpwill said:
We aren't an empire "now" we have been an empire for some time. And a pretty good one, as they go, certainly a different kind. And yeah, we do create new realities.

Well apparently your definition of "empire" (which by the way, I happen to call "the standard definition") and Karl Rove's definition are a little bit different.

Ronald Suskind was at the White House for a meeting with Karl Rove.

He writes:

In the summer of 2002, after I had written an article in Esquire that the White House didn't like about Bush's former communications director, Karen Hughes, I had a meeting with a senior adviser* to Bush. He expressed the White House's displeasure, and then he told me something that at the time I didn't fully comprehend -- but which I now believe gets to the very heart of the Bush presidency.

The aide said that guys like me were ''in what we call the reality-based community,'' which he defined as people who ''believe that solutions emerge from your judicious study of discernible reality.'' I nodded and murmured something about enlightenment principles and empiricism. He cut me off. ''That's not the way the world really works anymore,'' he continued. ''We're an empire now, and when we act, we create our own reality. And while you're studying that reality -- judiciously, as you will -- we'll act again, creating other new realities, which you can study too, and that's how things will sort out. We're history's actors . . . and you, all of you, will be left to just study what we do.''

(*later revealed as Rove)

If you wish to engage in political framing, I am not going to attempt to discourage or stop you because I accept that it's a futile endeavor.
There's the reality based community and there's the faith-based community, the former's opinions are more often than not based on observations of facts in evidence, the latter's are based on faith, assumption and ideological dogma.

Most nations become empires through careful maneuvering of well placed resources, assets, education and skill managed through carefully crafted projections of power.
They are able to do this because they choose to adhere to wisdom gained from their position in the reality based community.
One might say that the ancient Romans learned the best lessons on democracy from the ancient Greeks. This would be an example of functioning in the reality based community. This is the type of thinking that allowed Rome to become an empire.

Over time however, the Romans lost their connections to reality based thinking and began to function on faith, assumption and ideological dogma.
The lesson here is that all empires eventually collapse, as over ten thousand years of history proves, and it is often because of the same mistakes made again and again, by arrogant people who act as though belief trumps fact.

Conservative · Jun 14, 2014

Re: Iraq insurgents take Saddam's home town in lightning advance

notquiteright said:
Like it or not, we went into Iraq, over 4,000 Americans died, the surge FINALLY brought the numbers up in country to the PROFESSIONAL military men's estimate YEARS after they had any chance of 'winning'. Huge bribes were paid to Sunni leaders and a truce was haltingly observed. BushII then announced the draw down, the year we would leave, and then scurried out the back door leaving it to others to finish the clean-up. :doh

The Iraqi government didn't want to extend the SoFA and that was that.

Now when it comes to speaking for vets, I speak for myself and wife, coz we R Juan.... no need to second party that, I did my time in the slime. :2wave:

Allow me to express my disgust at those who stayed behind, but wish to speak on behalf of those who did go into the **** (my wife is a vet and she DAMN sure doesn't try that crap)

BushII didn't win a damn thing. What increase of danger there is is a DIRECT result of the Bush hubris before during and after the Invasion. Saddam was a baaaaad man, but you can't swing a dead cat around that part of the world and not hit a baaaad man (some, our dear friends and allies) :shock:

But BushII DAMN sure destabilized the region with ZERO plan to fix it.

AMERICA has ZERO desire to 'go back in'. Iraq is as much a nation as Yugoslavia was. Our dear friends and allies, the Saudis, DAMN sure should have done far more to stabilize the Sunni side of the violence. Where are the Kurds in all of this?????

When BushII decided to hit Iraq with 'Shock and Awe' it was only a matter of time before we would feel shock and awwwww.... :3oops:

Again, your opinion is just that an opinion from someone who didn't like the war and who is so naive that they don't believe what is happening there now is going to affect them. Your short term thinking and lack of understanding of the broad picture is part of the problem. Saying your sorry in the future isn't going to change the reality of what is happening now. You buy the liberal spin regarding the Status of Forces agreement and that spin is false. It was Obama arrogance and failed leadership that is leading to the results we see on the ground now. Too bad progressives like you never admit when you are wrong but when proven wrong it is way too late.

ocean515 · Jun 14, 2014

Re: Iraq insurgents take Saddam's home town in lightning advance

dad2three2001 said:
Got it, we should listen to those that lied US into war the first time as they MIGHT be correct today? lol

No, obviously you don't get it. But I suppose clinging to the words of those who continue to lie about the facts is a good idea for some. Par for the course I've come to understand.

Conservative · Jun 14, 2014

Re: Iraq insurgents take Saddam's home town in lightning advance

rocket88 said:
So you're willing to have more Americans die to increase Iran's influence.

Ronald Reagan must be so proud....

It isn't Americans influence that is the problem, it is Obama's arrogance, hatred of Iraq that is being spewed here as well, and total lack of leadership on his part. Obama is certainly no Reagan

Jack Hays · Jun 14, 2014

Re: Iraq insurgents take Saddam's home town in lightning advance

AJiveMan said:
Really, how many Iraqis did you survey.

They were glad we were there.eace

Jack Hays · Jun 14, 2014

Re: Iraq insurgents take Saddam's home town in lightning advance

rocket88 said:
Maliki was unwilling to have Sunnis in the government, because he's taking some of his cues from Iran. That's why the current situation is happening. Of course, Iran's influence bound to increase. A Sunni leader was deposed and replaced with a democracy in a majority Shiite country. It doesn't take a genius to see that it was inevitable. I guess if you call that a victory, then Bush did win. Personally, I don't call making Iran more influential a victory.

Basically, how many more American lives are you willing to sacrifice for a place that either can't or won't overcome sectarianism?

So long as we maintained a presence Iran's influence was held somewhat in check.eace

ocean515 · Jun 14, 2014

Re: Iraq insurgents take Saddam's home town in lightning advance

dad2three2001 said:
Got it, you're a neocon and will hold onto ANYTHING to justify the horrible decision to invade Iraq on false premises

"Rebuilding America's Defenses" – A Summary
Blueprint of the PNAC Plan for U.S. Global Hegemony

Some people have compared it to Hitler's publication of Mein Kampf, which was ignored until after the war was over.
"REBUILDING AMERICA'S DEFENSES" – A Summary

Awesome! A Hitler reference.

Matters not to me that people are so desperate to be proven so gullible in the face of facts. I say carry on to those who are required to do so.

Kind of vaporizes the credibility quotient, but it would seem there was little in that bank account to begin with.

rocket88 · Jun 14, 2014

Re: Iraq insurgents take Saddam's home town in lightning advance

Conservative said:
It isn't Americans influence that is the problem, it is Obama's arrogance, hatred of Iraq that is being spewed here as well, and total lack of leadership on his part. Obama is certainly no Reagan

I didn't say America's influence, I said Iran's influence. You don't see that as a problem? Or is that Obama's fault too?

Obama is no Reagan, but you have run so far away from Reagan to stoke your ODS you can't even see him anymore.

rocket88 · Jun 14, 2014

Re: Iraq insurgents take Saddam's home town in lightning advance

Jack Hays said:
So long as we maintained a presence Iran's influence was held somewhat in check.eace

Not really. Their influence has been building since 2003

How many more lives for Iraq? Simple question. How many more Americans have to die for the sectarian divide?

Jack Hays · Jun 14, 2014

Re: Iraq insurgents take Saddam's home town in lightning advance

notquiteright said:
So how tasty were the candies and how sweet the flowers they threw at you? I know a bunch of guys who went out and about on patrol, they don't have the same impression you have. So what all did you do over there? How long, and how many times did you mingle in the marketplaces across Iraq? You go out on those patrols to the remote villages and such on a day to day basis for a year????

I went to Austria once while stationed in the FRG, can't say I know what Austrians think of Americans past a few who made there livelihood on the tourist trade.... eace

I won't discuss my time there in detail. It suffices to say that while there were of course dangers, most of the people I met were quite friendly. Outside Baghdad was no more dangerous than inside.eace

Iraq insurgents take Saddam's home town in lightning advance [W:246, 565, *656*]

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