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The chaotic scene unfolded with flash-bang grenades, rubber bullets and clouds of smoke. Canisters whizzed through the air amid deafening booms. Marine Lance Cpl. Scott Olsen went down.
"Medic! Medic!" someone yelled.
Olsen, 24, had seen his share of war in two tours of Iraq as a Marine. He was lucky, returning home physically unscathed.
But Tuesday evening, near the corner of 14th Avenue and Broadway in Oakland, California, Olsen went down.
The video images went viral: streams of crimson flowing down Olsen's head, his black T-shirt adorned with a white dove of peace, the war veteran carried to a hospital.
And with that, the Occupy movement had a face.
My opinion was that the police response to the OWS movement in Oakland was overly brutal and goes beyond what is permitted even in actual war zones, such as Iraq.
There are more humane crowd control options available that the police have access to, which would also affirm the humanity of people that they may disagree with.
The Oakland police have no excuse for their behavior.
Putting that aside, this sort of thing, putting a face on a movement is the type of thing that galvanizes people and movements and puts them on a higher plateau.
The problem with trying to make this vet the "face" of the movement is that he's not. I think it's exploitive too.
He, of his own free will went to the protests and took part in them, so yes, he is a face of the movement, even if doesn't fit the stereotype that many here would like to portray. That alone makes it not an exploitation.
Personally, I wish it had never happened, the last thing we need is a martyr inflaming the passions of people, but I lay the blame for this on the police department as they could have dispersed the crowd less forcibly, even if it is within the rules of engagement, rules of engagement and wise judgement are two different things and they displayed a lack of the latter.
given that they are trying to take groups of varying degrees of social acceptability and hide them under the honor that Americans feel towards his service, yes, in fact, it is exploitive.
And I would love for you to list out the things that you honestly think would have dispersed that crowd that were less harmful than a friggin smoke grenade. I' mean come on.
Anyone can claim to be an Iraq vet, how do we know for sure?
then I would suggest you go there, as your opinion is incorrect. If someone had thrown a bottle, rock, and small explosives at me when I was in Iraq, they would have been killed. If you run up to a patrol today with something unidentifiable in your hand and move to throw it at them, they will all turn en masse and ventilate you.
furthermore, some smoke grenades pop off - and the signature of that "explosion" is much smaller than you would get from a flashbang. I notice the distinct lack of people incapacitated. My bet would be you got the right angle of the top of a smoke grenade, or one of the idiot protestors dropped or poorly threw their firecracker.
fascinating. considering they were using non-lethal force in response to what technically falls under the definition of a deadly threat triggering the 7 Justifications of Deadly Force, I would be interested in hearing what you think the nicer kinder gentler reaction (vice tear gas) to being charged by a crowd hurling explosives (because that is what firecrackers are) would be. Rubber bullets and tear gas hurt - but mallets to the skull hurt much worse.
that's funny. I was kind of thinking the same thing about the criminals who were attacking them.
this guy doesn't put anything on a higher plateau any more than all the vets in the Tea Party put that movement on a higher plateau. If you want to get into a "who do the vets support" chest-thumper, the OWS crowd will lose that in a landslide.
I still disagree, because again, it was this person's wish to be there. This one consideration is really the only thing that matters.
You forget the rubber bullets and other types of force.
considering that the gathering was illegal, no, in fact, it is not the only thing that matters.
this thread is about the use (the evil, violent, hateful, war crime type use) of a smoke grenade; specifically that it accidentally hit a guy in the head. That's the law of averages for you.
:shrug: as for rubber bullets, good on them. you would prefer they switch to tracers?
I knew that sooner or later someone was going to injured or killed by the police or national guard and would become the 'four dead in Ohio' type martyr of the 99%/OWS movement. That he was a former Marine with two tours in Iraq under his belt gives this living-martyr some traction with a wider audience.
The killing of those four students in Ohio focused the attention of people who had previously not supported or opposed the anti-war movement and many decided they supported the movement. It was a turning point in the anti-war movement and got politicians on both sides to really work toward ending the Vietnam War because it became the hot-button issue on a large portion of the electorate's mind and they saw their re-election chance's depended on being seen as trying to end the war.
Martyrs (living or dead) galvanized groups into an 'us versus them' mentality. Having someone get seriously injured or killed in a protest gives everyone a sense of having skin in the game. The more force that is applied to the protesters, the stronger this movement will become.
Having someone get seriously injured or killed in a protest gives everyone a sense of having skin in the game. The more force that is applied to the protesters, the stronger this movement will become.
I don't see the legality as that relevant. When considering fundamental human rights, the law is a lesser consideration.
Yes, I am aware of the details of what happened, but that still does not excuse it.
My preference is for them to use things like pain rays or immobile foam which has the least probability of harm. That is how civilized people act.
Time will tell. I'm old and don't mind waiting to see if I'm right or you are.Completely disagree. In my opinion, most of the real working stiffs in this country respect the rule of law.
fundamental human rights such as..... the right to not have to file a petition for protest like everybody friggin else?
fundamental human rights.... :roll: yeah, when I look at these guys sitting there, I see real sufferers for fundamental human rights. yeah. these people out there whining about how it turns out they actually have to pay back their student loans are on the same plane as those in prison in Burma, China, and Cuba. People being tortured to death in North Korea, or gunned down in the street by armored vehicles in Syria are just like upper middle class white kids from America.
what utter complete bull****. you know what? we need a time of real starvation and suffering in America.
"pain rays" cause more actual pain than the smoke grenade you are complaining about, can occasionally actually cause real damage (think, heart failure), and you may find this difficult to believe, but they and super foam are not part of your average swat teams' load.
The cops here did the right thing, a guy got hurt, that sucks. I realize that it may be difficult for the OWS crowd to "get" but sometimes "life is not fair". The rest of us call that "reality" and most of this useless generation has been protected from it their entire narcissistic existence.
My preference is for them to use things like pain rays or immobile foam which has the least probability of harm. That is how civilized people act.
It suddenly occurs to me:
one of these sides works hard to take care of their families. they work a job that entails alot of effort, and alot of difficult, awkward, painful, and dangerous work on behalf of a populace whose main interaction with them is to bitch about getting speeding tickets. they are disproportionately military veterans, because they are the kind of people who believe in protecting others. they obey the law, pay taxes, raise families and work hard for what they get.
the other one of these sides is rejecting the rule of law. they are insisting that others should work for them. they appear to have never willingly sacrificed anything for anyone else in their entire life. they celebrate a "culture" built around lack of responsibility and parasitism off of the first group of people, who nonetheless are trying to protect them from the predators that are in the second groups' midst.
who, exactly, represents civilization again?
Oh look, I posted something you did not want to hear and you get all emotional. Figures. Try debating with facts and intelligence.
Then the swat teams should get new equipment.
The simple fact is that this was handled badly by the police, who by their actions were willing to cause real physical harm
when they should have been better prepared and more disciplined given that their methods were going to get someone seriously hurt or killed at some point.
, this is what civilized people do.
Both groups, but different aspect of it, why?
cpwill the other one of these sides is rejecting the rule of law. they are insisting that others should work for them. they appear to have never willingly sacrificed anything for anyone else in their entire life. they celebrate a "culture" built around lack of responsibility and parasitism off of the first group of people said:I would like to see your link to prove that statement. You talk about BS! BS is where you find it. I've just showed you yours.
...Potato farmer Keith Smith saw most of his Hispanic workers leave after Alabama's tough immigration law took effect, so he hired Americans. It hasn't worked out: They show up late, work slower than seasoned farm hands and are ready to call it a day after lunch or by midafternoon. Some quit after a single day...
In south Georgia, Connie Horner has heard just about every reason unemployed Americans don't want to work on her blueberry farm. It's hot, the hours are long, the pay isn't enough and it's just plain hard.
"You can't find legal workers," Horner said. "Basically they last a day or two, literally."...
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