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Your preferences don't matter. Not everyone is like you. The supporters of the Indiana law are proud to have opinions 180 degrees different than you. It's they, the proudly anti-SSM/gay evangelicals, the LGBT is worried about, not socially liberal libertarian types.
Should it be legal for an employer to have a DADT employment policy? It's a simple question.
And what you have to recognize is you may disagree with the anti-SSM/gay crowd, but you're supporting policies they support for the purpose of discriminating against LBGT - that's what they tell us their goal is.
nope, just asking if
1) you're a sinner
2) you grant equal weight to all parts of your scripture
Really? Unless you are clairvoyant, you have no idea where I borrowed it from. I do not even know what that group is, although from your description I would guess it is made up of statist drones.
I saw the phrase in Justice Scalia's dissenting opinion in Lawrence v. Texas, as I recall. He was specifically talking about several members of the Court that he believed had signed onto the homosexual agenda, and I think he is exactly right about that. And Justice Kennedy seems to have signed on very enthusiastically.
You left out Section 9:
"Sec. 9. A person whose exercise of religion has been
substantiallyburdened, or islikely tobe substantiallyburdened,by
a violation of this chapter may assert the violation or impending
violation as a claim or defense in a judicial or administrative
proceeding, regardless of whether the state or any other
governmental entity is a party to the proceeding."
This provides that religious beliefs (as defined earlier) are a valid defense in claims between two persons (which also previously defined includes business entities). In plan English that means if a Muslim cab driver refused service to a blind person because they have a service dog (and yes that has happened, Minnesota Cab Driver case) , the owner can claim a religious objection to Jews and under this law it is a legal defense.
https://iga.in.gov/static-documents/9/2/b/a/92bab197/SB0101.05.ENRS.pdf
>>>>
No hyperbole about it. Every one of my questions was serious. Nothing is stopping anyone who thinks it's right to rent to homosexuals from doing just that. The more relevant question is whether people who do not want to rent to them in buildings with only a few units, where freedom of association and the right to privacy come into play, can be forced to do it by law.
Apartments and other rental housing are not usually considered public accommodations. But these same issues have been raised by state public accommodations laws. And it is those laws that the RFRA which is the topic of this thread apparently was meant to create a religious-belief exception to.
RFRA's are meant to protect the right to free exercise, which is one more part of the First Amendment, along with the freedoms of speech and association, that public accommodations laws which make sexual preference a protected category may run up against.
Maybe someone else will want to give some thought to the questions I posed.
My preferences matter to me. And you're asking me a legal question about what a business should have - I'm not a lawyer. I know next to nothing about DADT and what's in it.
But one more time - people can and do get let go from their jobs all the time. I don't know that being let go because you're gay is any more upsetting than being let go because your boss likes Mary or Henry better than you.
No, all your questions were hyperbolic and didn't actually address what you were responding to. YOU created the argument that Grim was making because his actual argument didn't seem to suit you.
That isn't what this is about and you should really be able to see thru a politician's lies and that of the FRC, who stood behind the governor as signed the law. Try reading the bill for one. It's impossibly broad. All it says is "burdens religious beliefs." That can be freaking anything, including medical treatment, and it's leaving the courts to act as mind readers in a case by case basis.
This is about hatred of LGBT, period. The only diff is they aren't able to be *quite* as transparent about it as those very same pulpits were in the past
"SB 101 will help protect individuals, Christian businesses and churches from those supporting homosexual marriages and those supporting government recognition and approval of gender identity (male cross-dressers)."
Notice no mention of protection for other religions or of other targeted groups. I guess you must be a fan of repealing the civil rights act too. I mean at least then you're consistent
Oh and it clearly violates "equal protection" and roper v evans, public accommodation laws, as well as anti discrimination laws in 12 counties
If nothing else, i hope this circus and massive disinvestment dissuades other states from attempting the same
matches points were very clear to us who are up to speed with the macro issues of this ...
Being elected does not mean they are better judges, in fact I think they are possibly even (or should I say most likely) better than chosen judges because they do not have to pander to the special interests and the people who bankroll their elections. Judges should not be elected IMHO, they should uphold the law, not be in the pockets of the biggest political sponsors or political parties. Judges need to be totally independent.
His points were completely irrelevant to the post of which he was responding, and misrepresented Grim's position.
If that's all that's at stake, then Indiana can amend the law to protect gays from discrimination except in cases of cake and flowers. I would take a large bet that's not going to happen. It's bigger than cake and flowers.
I don't disagree with you. The law is a smokescreen for attacks on the LGBT community. If it wasn't, it's broadness would address other groups, such as atheists for example. The actual legal intent of such a law, however, is not really problematic, and people can choose to associate with whomever they want. I support businesses having the right to choose who they will serve for whatever reason. I also support free speech and freedom of the press, and I would encourage people to take out full page ads in newspapers identifying businesses who choose not to serve certain groups of people.
Above you said this discussion was about more than than what the law is, and includes what we think the law should be. Should it be legal for a private business to have a DADT type policy. They will hire you if you're in the closet, and will fire you if they find out you're gay, for no reason other than you're gay.
Goodness, I really cannot figure out why you often go to great lengths to avoid the point than address it and have an honest debate.
I don't disagree with you. The law is a smokescreen for attacks on the LGBT community. If it wasn't, it's broadness would address other groups, such as atheists for example. The actual legal intent of such a law, however, is not really problematic, and people can choose to associate with whomever they want. I support businesses having the right to choose who they will serve for whatever reason. I also support free speech and freedom of the press, and I would encourage people to take out full page ads in newspapers identifying businesses who choose not to serve certain groups of people.
Whether sexual orientation is analogous to race with respect to public accommodations depends on what the law is in a particular state.
I "dodged" the question because I'm on topic. This isn't about being black. It's about businesses being allowed to decline service to gay people under the guise of religion.
not to those of use see the bigger issue...his points were spot on as far as the goverment over reach and this not stopping unless its curtailed...
some of are not as in love with Obama and his judgement..
What's wrong is to tell a business he can't refuse service to someone for whatever reasons he chooses
Yes but have you also considered that this is perhaps the whole point. It cuts both ways, CC. Taking out ads only draws attention to a specific issue, and either angers or affirms one's sensibilities. They tried to take down Chic fil A a couple years back, Oops, that didn't exactly pan out did it? Be careful what you wish for, is the lesson for the day! It goes to what I said some 150 pages back, and that is that I am surprisingly against such laws. I fear the long term efficacy of such laws, and followed to their logical conclusion only serve to divide people, not the other way around.
Editing: I think a good compromise is to shift the burden, or provide a pre-trial test of some homosexual wanting to sue, by simply asking them one question. Did you have other options? It is easily verifiable, and would not gum up court rooms.
Tim-
Actually, they wouldn't be irrelevant to the "chicken littles" amongst you, folks who love to take things out of context and invent arguments and positions that don't exist... folks that just hate Obama because they need something to hate.
it is not a smokescreen against the LBGT at all.. its a two way street for respect and tolerance..which the liberals have no respect of
I say take out full page adds on those who take out full page adds attacking a private business for their beliefs
Yes, establishments often can enforce "dress codes" - ties, jackets, no sandals, no shorts, no t-shirts, etc.Sure you can. In fact, one of my friends who owns a café refused to serve 2 big fat guys wearing "PETA - People Eating Tasty Animals" shirts last year. She told them why she was doing it too. Then she called a lawyer friend of ours and asked if she broke a law. She told her "Nope".
your posts reflect the mindset of a true Obama believer and a liberal that is again ok with faschist over blown harvesting of our freedoms to fit the myopic short sighted liberal agenda..
many of us know this is just another chipping away with our freedoms...
So...
1. A gay couple walks into a baker to order a wedding cake, the law provides the baker can use religion as a means to refuse service.
2. Two weeks later the baker and his wife walk into a antique shop owned by the gay couple and the gay couple refuses to serve the baker because of the bakers religions beliefs.
In event #1 the baker will be exempt from Public Accommodation laws because he acted on his religious beliefs,
on the other hand the gay couple would be charged under the Public Accommodation law (if sexual orientation is covered by that State's law) and the complaint would proceed. They of course being in violation of both State and Federal law.
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