Illegal Immigrants

[Dutch321]

Does anyone out there believe that illegal immigration, although mostly a negative thing, does have positive aspects. Some things I've noticed is that many illegals join the military (according to recruiters, an illegal to goes into combat earns citizenship), work hard, hate tyranny (due to the places they come from), and are usually Christian (Catholic I believe). They sound like Conservatives in my humble opinion. By the way it disgusts me that people BORN HERE won't join the U.S. Armed Forces, yet people from other countries will.

 

[John1234]

By the way it disgusts me that people BORN HERE won't join the U.S. Armed Forces, yet people from other countries will.

You are confusing the willingness to defend one's Country for what he views are noble and just reasons with those that are unwilling to fight a war for proffit and influence.
There are also many in which joining the military is against their religion.

 

[Dutch321]

I assume you mean our "influence" and actions in the middle east are bad. Things like deposing dictators and liberating people from torture and rape chambers are bad actions and so is our influence like democratic ideals and capitalism (which has increased the standard of living of all countries who participate in it). But that's aside from the point, it was on Illegal Immigrants and whether or not they may have some positive effect on our country.

 

[MC.no.spin]

Illegals have a positive effect for certain Americans who are trying to beat the competition through out-bidding them on projects being contracted out.

If I had an electical company that does installations for home/commercial development contractors, I can make more profits by hiring illegals to do the work under my foreman.

The consequence is that less Americans are employed. They would gladly do the work, but I would have to pay them more.

In a highly competitive industry like the one above, shortcuts are looked for to out-bid the others. This creates demand for illegal workers, which brings more over the border in search of work. This then further exascerbates the employment problem for legal citizens.

In the end, there is a more negative impact than positive. Even though myself and the other company leaders make more, we are outnumbered by the unemployed skill workers who are citizens of the country who didn't get hired instead.

The only way to combat this besides tighter border security is with stiffer penalties for hiring them. Reagan passed legislation making these fines strong and tough, but the Democrats like Teddy Kennedy got them extremely watered down, to the point where the threat of such is impotent in making companies think twice in using illegals.

 

[Dutch321]

Illegals have a positive effect for certain Americans who are trying to beat the competition through out-bidding them on projects being contracted out.

If I had an electical company that does installations for home/commercial development contractors, I can make more profits by hiring illegals to do the work under my foreman.

The consequence is that less Americans are employed. They would gladly do the work, but I would have to pay them more.

In a highly competitive industry like the one above, shortcuts are looked for to out-bid the others. This creates demand for illegal workers, which brings more over the border in search of work. This then further exascerbates the employment problem for legal citizens.

In the end, there is a more negative impact than positive. Even though myself and the other company leaders make more, we are outnumbered by the unemployed skill workers who are citizens of the country who didn't get hired instead.

The only way to combat this besides tighter border security is with stiffer penalties for hiring them. Reagan passed legislation making these fines strong and tough, but the Democrats like Teddy Kennedy got them extremely watered down, to the point where the threat of such is impotent in making companies think twice in using illegals.

Well, I agree with your points, but due to minimum wage laws and excessive union powers and huge corporation taxes, that is the reason that companies have to hire illegals over American citizens. It is all due to big government.

 

[John1234]

A little off topic...
But i think that if the economy continues to plunge and many Americans end up jobless, that the illegal alien arguments will heat up quite a bit.

We need to settle this thing too.
I'd rather see them deported but if we are not going to do that then its time to make them citizens and seal the damn border up.

 

[John1234]

Well, I agree with your points, but due to minimum wage laws and excessive union powers and huge corporation taxes, that is the reason that companies have to hire illegals over American citizens. It is all due to big government.

That is ridiculous.
The corporate tax is not huge.
It probably will be soon. But it is not currently and certainly can not be blamed for illegal aliens.

 

[Dutch321]

That is ridiculous.
The corporate tax is not huge.
It probably will be soon. But it is not currently and certainly can not be blamed for illegal aliens.

I didn't say they Illegals caused huge taxes on companies, I said they are huge in general on corporations and upper class. Why do you think they hire people in other countries, to escape stupid government taxes. The top 1% of income earners pay 40% of the Federal Taxes currently.

 

[MC.no.spin]

Well, I agree with your points, but due to minimum wage laws and excessive union powers and huge corporation taxes, that is the reason that companies have to hire illegals over American citizens. It is all due to big government.

I could hire non-unionized workers, that's not a given. Not all industry workers are part of a union. But I would have to pay American workers a lot more than illegals. I also would have to pay pay-roll taxes on their wages.

The corporate taxes I face will be the same - I basically would have to falsify my profits on my tax return to escape that.

What this illegal immigration problem is due to is summed up in one word: LIBERALS.

 

[Dutch321]

I could hire non-unionized workers, that's not a given. Not all industry workers are part of a union. But I would have to pay American workers a lot more than illegals. I also would have to pay pay-roll taxes on their wages.

The corporate taxes I face will be the same - I basically would have to falsify my profits on my tax return to escape that.

What this illegal immigration problem is due to is summed up in one word: LIBERALS.

/completely and totally agree

 

[Doc Howl]

Does anyone out there believe that illegal immigration, although mostly a negative thing, does have positive aspects.

None that are worth the problems associated with it.

 

[kamino]

Some things I've noticed is that many illegals join the military (according to recruiters, an illegal to goes into combat earns citizenship).

Actually you can not join the military as an illigal, you can join the military as a legal immigrant from which you may earn your citizenship.

 

[kamino]

and liberating people from torture and rape chambers are bad actions.

If we the American people can throw off our dictators (King george) so can other people, they just choose not to. We did not wait for others to start our revolution, though we may have asked for help from the french, we did not wait for some ultimate power to say, "these people are treated badly, we should liberate them" No, we stood up for ourselves. Therefore if other countries have not had revolution that tells me that things still have not gotten bad enough for them to have a revolution.

 

[DiAnna]

I could hire non-unionized workers, that's not a given. Not all industry workers are part of a union. But I would have to pay American workers a lot more than illegals. I also would have to pay pay-roll taxes on their wages.

The corporate taxes I face will be the same - I basically would have to falsify my profits on my tax return to escape that.

What this illegal immigration problem is due to is summed up in one word: LIBERALS.

Although I agree that illegal immigration is a problem... an immense problem... I don't think we can politicize it so neatly. Don't forget, Reagan gave illegals amnesty 20 years ago when there were only 2 million of them. He promised to secure the border and enforce immigration laws against employers whose promise of jobs lured them here in the first place. He didn't do it.

George H. Bush didn't do it, either. Nor did Clinton or George W. Bush. Now we have between 12-20 million of them, they pour across at the rate of 1-2 million per year, and every promise made to the American people to secure the border and enforce our immigration laws has been repeatedly broken, by both republican and democratic administrations.

Why? Votes and money. Politicians need the Hispanic vote. Politicians also need corporate money, and it's those corporations who support the low-cost labor (and subsequent higher profits) that illegals are willing to work for.

Of course nobody thinks about the jobs lost to citizens and legal residents. Nobody thinks about the millions of stolen social security numbers that causes no end of anguish for the legitimate owners of those numbers. Just "it's good for business" to have cheap labor that can be extorted to work for a pittance with the whisper of a threat to turn them over to the INS.

Americans have been completely and utterly betrayed by the past 4 administrations, and the result is an invasion that shows no end in sight. It's not the "liberals" fault; it's everybody's fault.

 

[saffron]

This original post saying that the poster is disgusted that people born here won't join the service is not even true. I do not know any illegal immigrants from MExico who join the service.

BTW I can't see anything positive about the illegal Mexicans. I can write a list of the negatives though. But it would get me banned from this forum.

 

[MC.no.spin]

Although I agree that illegal immigration is a problem... an immense problem... I don't think we can politicize it so neatly. Don't forget, Reagan gave illegals amnesty 20 years ago when there were only 2 million of them. He promised to secure the border and enforce immigration laws against employers whose promise of jobs lured them here in the first place. He didn't do it.

He passed legislation as part of that amnesty (which he didn't want to give but had to as a compromise) to enforce strict fines and possible jail time for hiring illegals. Kennedy and his cronies then fought to weaken that enforcement ever since. Kennedy is proud of this - it's no secret. It's part of his "equal rights" mission, everybody gets equal rights except Mary Jo Kopechne.

George H. Bush didn't do it, either. Nor did Clinton or George W. Bush. Now we have between 12-20 million of them, they pour across at the rate of 1-2 million per year, and every promise made to the American people to secure the border and enforce our immigration laws has been repeatedly broken, by both republican and democratic administrations.

You've isolated the problem well, now do some research and isolate the causes. Don't take my word for it. Look for the exact individuals responsible in Congress for watering down immigration law enforcement. Check out which cities are sanctuary cities and figure out if they are liberal or conservative towns. Connect the dots. Narrow your target, re-focus, then shoot.

Why? Votes and money. Politicians need the Hispanic vote. Politicians also need corporate money, and it's those corporations who support the low-cost labor (and subsequent higher profits) that illegals are willing to work for.

Okay, which politicians? Who are the real softies? Let's see who sponsored weak legislation, who voted for it, who signed it into law. Which party dominates the list? Which party fights to have illegals enfranchised to vote?

Of course nobody thinks about the jobs lost to citizens and legal residents. Nobody thinks about the millions of stolen social security numbers that causes no end of anguish for the legitimate owners of those numbers. Just "it's good for business" to have cheap labor that can be extorted to work for a pittance with the whisper of a threat to turn them over to the INS.

You definitely see the problem. That's great. Now follow the trail for who is really behind the patty cake antics here.

Here's some info:

Ted Kennedy record:

* Voted YES on continuing federal funds for declared "sanctuary cities". (Mar 2008)
* Voted YES on comprehensive immigration reform. (Jun 2007)
* Voted NO on declaring English as the official language of the US government. (Jun 2007)
* Voted NO on eliminating the "Y" nonimmigrant guestworker program. (May 2007)
* Voted YES on establishing a Guest Worker program. (May 2006)
* Voted YES on allowing illegal aliens to participate in Social Security. (May 2006)
* Voted YES on giving Guest Workers a path to citizenship. (May 2006)
* Voted NO on allowing more foreign workers into the US for farm work. (Jul 1998)
* Voted NO on visas for skilled workers. (May 1998)
* Voted NO on limit welfare for immigrants. (Jun 1997)
* Sponsored comprehensive immigration reform, without amnesty. (May 2005)
* Pay fair prevailing wage to guest workers. (May 2006)
* Rated 0% by USBC, indicating an open-border stance. (Dec 2006)

Ted Kennedy on Immigration

Americans have been completely and utterly betrayed by the past 4 administrations, and the result is an invasion that shows no end in sight. It's not the "liberals" fault; it's everybody's fault.

It's the liberal agenda that conservatives compromise with that is the problem. No need to sugar-coat it, otherwise people might miss the burning barn in front of their eyes.

By the way, McCain has pledged to get 5 billion dollars funded for a fence across the border once elected. Obama has no such plans.

Immigration reform

 

[DiAnna]

He passed legislation as part of that amnesty (which he didn't want to give but had to as a compromise) to enforce strict fines and possible jail time for hiring illegals. Kennedy and his cronies then fought to weaken that enforcement ever since. Kennedy is proud of this - it's no secret. It's part of his "equal rights" mission, everybody gets equal rights except Mary Jo Kopechne.

Kennedy is one person. During the past 20 years, both republicans and democrats have held the white house, both republicans and democrats have held the senate, and neither republicans nor democrats have ever done anything substantial to alleviate the illegal immigration problem when they had the congressional numbers to do so. The reason is not partisian, it's monetary. Both republicans and democrats take money from lobbyists representing the employers of illegal labor, and that money buys a blind eye toward enforcement of our immigration laws.

By the way, McCain has pledged to get 5 billion dollars funded for a fence across the border once elected. Obama has no such plans.

And it's George Bush who also pledged billions for the border fence, yet little if anything has been done on it.

Look, I'll agree that liberals in general are more likely to support an open border and even the horrific idea of a "North American Union"... but this isn't a partisian issue. I know a hell of a lot of liberals who are furious about the government's decades of inaction in securing our borders and enforcing our laws. People who have seen the destruction this invasion has wrought to ordinary citizens and ordinary communities, be they liberal or conservative, are far more likely to support border security than those whose only experience with the problems is reading about them in the newspaper or on forums like this.

One reason that I'm Independent is because partisianship and partisian hatred blinds people to the realities of life because people stop thinking for themselves and go to the mat for anything that their party platform includes. I repeat, this isn't just a liberal or conservative problem. It's an American problem, and like it or not, we are all Americans.

 

[Thoridorn]

YES! if they one day sign up to be American... I think we aught to have some free way for some people to be citizens to where over time they can pay off citizen ship. Or an easier way to do this... why come over illegally... our gov can fix this easily by losening up and allowing some of it but still make them register some how some time within a time limit or something thatd be a lot more fare i think

 

[oberhaenslir]

Immigrants from which country are Christians? What does mean 'born here'?

.

... are usually Christian (Catholic I believe). They sound like Conservatives in my humble opinion. By the way it disgusts me that people BORN HERE won't join the U.S. Armed Forces, yet people from other countries will.

Immigrants from which country are Christians? What does mean 'born here'? In which country of this world?

.

 

[MC.no.spin]

Kennedy is one person. During the past 20 years, both republicans and democrats have held the white house, both republicans and democrats have held the senate, and neither republicans nor democrats have ever done anything substantial to alleviate the illegal immigration problem when they had the congressional numbers to do so. The reason is not partisian, it's monetary. Both republicans and democrats take money from lobbyists representing the employers of illegal labor, and that money buys a blind eye toward enforcement of our immigration laws.



And it's George Bush who also pledged billions for the border fence, yet little if anything has been done on it.

Look, I'll agree that liberals in general are more likely to support an open border and even the horrific idea of a "North American Union"... but this isn't a partisian issue. I know a hell of a lot of liberals who are furious about the government's decades of inaction in securing our borders and enforcing our laws. People who have seen the destruction this invasion has wrought to ordinary citizens and ordinary communities, be they liberal or conservative, are far more likely to support border security than those whose only experience with the problems is reading about them in the newspaper or on forums like this.

One reason that I'm Independent is because partisianship and partisian hatred blinds people to the realities of life because people stop thinking for themselves and go to the mat for anything that their party platform includes. I repeat, this isn't just a liberal or conservative problem. It's an American problem, and like it or not, we are all Americans.

Please name one liberal in Federal public office that supports building a full wall and exporting illegals within our borders.

I can get you many names of conservatives. Hunter and Tancredo are two of the top ones.

It is a partisan issue. No doubt about it. RINOs are another story. Bush is no conservative. Neither is McCain. But that's them moving to the left, not a true representation of the Republican party.

If you watched the debates in the primaries you clearly saw how divided this issues is between parties. Nearly every Republican candidate wanted to build a wall and deport the ones within our borders. The Democratic candidates were the opposite. None of them made such statements.

It's the back and forth of trying to get anything passed into law these days with the resulting compromises that is the reason it doesn't look partisan, as well as RINOs who cater to the hispanic vote in their areas.

The bottom line is that if immigration is a hot issue for a voter, and he wants a tough immigration stance, his only chance is with the Republican Party.

 

[americanwoman]

This original post saying that the poster is disgusted that people born here won't join the service is not even true. I do not know any illegal immigrants from MExico who join the service.

BTW I can't see anything positive about the illegal Mexicans. I can write a list of the negatives though. But it would get me banned from this forum.

Why you have to single out Mexicans? There are millions of illegals from all other the world that come here, it just happens Mexico is on the border and that is easy entry for the illegals.

I am very interested to know what you think is so negative about illegal Mexicans that has not already been said in regard to illegal immigration. I doubt you will get banned unless you are just going to write a bunch of racist crap. If though that is the case, meet me in the basement.

 

[John1234]

Why you have to single out Mexicans? There are millions of illegals from all other the world that come here, it just happens Mexico is on the border and that is easy entry for the illegals.

Most of them are Mexican.
The Mexican ones stick together in large groups and are easy to spot, so they are more visable.
The TV mostly just talks about the ones from Mexico.

Its like you said, they are on the border and can walk right across.

I do not think the poster displayed any particular bias towards Mexico because it is easy to understand how one could use the term Illegal Mexican instead of Illegal Immigrant.

I also do not think anyone is targeting Mexico.
Its just a wording and perception issue.

Then again, i could be wrong.

 

[UtahBill]

Immigrants, legal or not, will continue as long as we can't get our citizens to do qualilty work on manual skilled labor, I paid an anglo american big bucks to put down over 1200 sq.ft. of tile, only to pay again to have it ripped out. Then I paid to have a Mexican, with green card, to do it over. He did a great job. I paid another to do 1600 sq. ft. of shop floor, and it is the best concrete job I have seen in a long time. My neighbor had a smaller job done extending the width of his driveway, and it was a terrible job, but he used an anglo american citizen. Those kinds of stories can be told again and again and again..

 

[MsCommonSensiality]

Why you have to single out Mexicans? There are millions of illegals from all other the world that come here, it just happens Mexico is on the border and that is easy entry for the illegals.

I am very interested to know what you think is so negative about illegal Mexicans that has not already been said in regard to illegal immigration. I doubt you will get banned unless you are just going to write a bunch of racist crap. If though that is the case, meet me in the basement.

Americanwoman, saffron is right. What isn't negative about the illegal Mexicans? They commit a crime by just coming here, then we take care of them with our tax dollars while they pop out anchor babies by the dozen!
They're disgusting mooches.
I think that Obama should build a giant, spiked fence along the border and put all of our troops there. Then instruct them to shoot on sight and drag the dead bodies up and pin them on the fence as a warning to incoming free-loaders.
Everything would be better if they all were just sent back.
I've got proof.

A Day Without an Illegal Immigrant by Rep. Tom Tancredo on National Review Online

Read it and weep, bleeding heart.

 

[ARealConservative]

Americanwoman, saffron is right. What isn't negative about the illegal Mexicans? They commit a crime by just coming here, then we take care of them with our tax dollars while they pop out anchor babies by the dozen!
They're disgusting mooches.
I think that Obama should build a giant, spiked fence along the border and put all of our troops there. Then instruct them to shoot on sight and drag the dead bodies up and pin them on the fence as a warning to incoming free-loaders.
Everything would be better if they all were just sent back.
I've got proof.

A Day Without an Illegal Immigrant by Rep. Tom Tancredo on National Review Online

Read it and weep, bleeding heart.

When you subsidize something, you get more of it.

If you want a society that caters to those in need, plan on people in need to sneak into the country. A fence isn't going to keep people out that desperately want in. What you need to attempt to understand is why people want in so bad.